Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

technical.ly

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 239 posts

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#51

Post by dwaltrip »

noirbot wrote: post #48
sneak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The passive-aggressive lie that is "unlimited PTO" is part of the growing toxicity of startup work environments.

To me, the most important part of unlimited PTO isn't the "unlimitedness" but the fact that it's not something I'm having to log in a system. It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice. My company just got rid of unlimited PTO for all the reasons people say they hate it - they didn't think people were taking enough PTO for their health…

Why don’t they call it something else then? Maybe “Flexible PTO”? I really don’t like the “unlimited” part of the name. It feels confusing / misleading to me.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#52

Post by davesque »

While I agree with the title, the article itself is a fluff piece. It takes several paragraphs just to give hand wavy advice like, "Just remove barriers." It also feels like it can't possibly be true that people prefer flexible hours more than a four day work week as is claimed. This just feels like one startup guru trying to kid themself into thinking they can get away with avoiding substantive change and trying to justify their fee by dutifully parroting what they heard at the latest growth seminar.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#53

Post by karaterobot »

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation.

> Well, root out the real causes of burnout.

I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come up with it, in fact some wise person here on HN stated it:

Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off.

You can work like a dog to release a feature, and if the feature does what it was meant to do, and you get recognized for your contribution, how hard you worked doesn't matter as much. You are energized, excited to be part of a great team, ready to move on to the next stunning victory.

On the other hand, if you work like a dog on a feature and it gets cut at the last minute, or its success is undermined by some VP's dumb idea, it sucks. If that happens over and over, without a win, you're burned out.

The solution is to get a win. Work on something that you can succeed on, and succeed at it, and get rewarded for it. Could be a big thing, but even a small thing is good enough. Sounds easy, but not always even possible in a badly-run organization.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#54

Post by S_A_P »

I had a bad case of burnout 2 years ago. I think for me it wasn’t that I was overwhelmed or otherwise overworked. I was working a lot of hours, but that didn’t bother me either. What got under my skin was that I understood the systemic reasons for all the fires we were having to put out were never going to change. So the burnout was the feeling that I was unable to do anything but tread water.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#55

Post by adverbly »

Vacation is when I want to complete ambitious projects that are not work related. My vacations are exhausting but worthwhile. They are like parenting. They do nothing to help burnout unless I spend them on doing nothing. How does one avoid burnout? 4 day work week. Have a day off with no kids and no travel and no work. Forced recovery time. Like sleep.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#56

Post by ineedasername »

I think vacations help mostly in the sense of "I just need to get through the next two months". That may help as a coping mechanism for burnout, but doesn't stop it.

And of course if you have a job that perpetuates cyclical or chronic burnout, going on vacation just means that you come back to work even more buried in things that went undone.

Or you sacrifice having a true vacation and still commit to working part of the time you're away.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#57

Post by bb88 »

beerandt wrote: post #35
eatonphil wrote: post #3

> What do we do? Well, root out the real causes of burnout. If it’s not those top workplace issues, it may very well be the burn of extended, heightened stress. For employees surveyed, flexible work hours and mental health support were more popular than even a four-day work week or unlimited PTO. The point then is lots of professionals like their actual work, they just don’t like the restrictions and environment. Giv…

Unlimited PTO is crazy to me. It takes the principles of spelled-out employment terms and throws them in the trash. The "flexible hours" policy was bad enough at my last job. Wildly varying interpretations between different managers and department heads under the same roof.

There's a lot of companies in the world where "vacation" is offered, but the managers will many times terminate those who take it. All it takes is for one or two employees to be terminated after just getting back from a vacation to send a message to the rest of the employees.

The right to use benefits has to be enforced by the CEO. If people aren't using their vacations (and effectively losing them), then that sets the culture off on the wrong foot from the start.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#58

Post by 11235813213455 »

decebalus1 wrote: post #10

Bullshit. Vacation [1] IS the answer for burnout. Long vacations are even more ok for burnout. Sabbaticals are the most ok. Guess what a doctor would recommend you do if you're having health issues from burnout? If there's chronic burnout in your company/org then indeed, no amount of vacation will fix that. But neither would flexible work hours or mental health support. [1] Vacation means complete and total disconnec…

For me a vacation, it's every day, every time I take my bike, go in the nature, it's something short and intense. I don't need to cut off several week from a job, take a plane to an exotic island. No, not only for environmental reasons, but I don't need it, just working less every day will be more efficient for me when I need to regenerate

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#59

Post by mikepurvis »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #20

I'm burnt out right now. Layoffs, a spin-out, and huge situational challenges related to both. Vacation is great, but I agree with the author here. Vacation _can_ be a tool to combat burnout - but burnout is often a result of other things besides hours worked. I've worked times of 80+ hours. While feeling worn out, I never got burnt out. I've worked times where I can barely put the effort into 30 hours/week. Right no…

100% agree. Burn out for me has everything to do with what the work is, whether there are enough hands for it, and whether it’s being properly recognized/appreciated.

It has nothing to do with the hours; indeed some of my most productive and least burnt out times have been when I was happily pouring in 60+ hrs/week because I was having fun and so energized by the project and my team’s excitement and collaboration dynamic.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#60

Post by rahimnathwani »

karaterobot wrote: post #53

When I've been burned out or hated my job, I didn't take vacations, because the crushing realization that I'd have to return to work was almost worse than losing myself in the uninterrupted, repetitive, dead-eyed grind. While on vacation, I'd start thinking about the countdown to the end of the vacation. > Well, root out the real causes of burnout. I'll offer the definition that's made most sense to me. I didn't come…

"Burnout is caused by working hard at something for a long time and not having it pay off."

Exactly.

Yet most people mistakenly attribute the feeling to other causes. OP quote what people think are the causes of their own burnout, and took those at face value.

When you're burnt out, you're probably not in a good state to determine the cause.

Post reply on HN