Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout • Hacker News Board

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#41

Post by 8ytecoder » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #34

stadium wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the company! If it's inauthentic though, employees can smell it from far away.

I have no doubt it's meant in good faith at many companies, but it's almost sure to be used unfairly. A lot of people, especially folks who don't feel safely part of whatever in-group, are going to be hesitant to push that policy, especially because being on vacation can be an imposition on your coworkers. I suspect you could implement the same policy in practice with less social anxiety by mandating N weeks of vacat…

Truth is it could be hard to take vacation in a toxic company irrespective of whether it's clearly laid out or not. A lot of startups are toxic - intentionally or unintentionally.

Mandating vacation is a good idea when they really mean it. Use it or lose might work. Fixed days with payout if you quit or an option to cash out works too - companies carry it in their balance sheet and encourage days off as a result.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#42

Post by xmprt » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #34

stadium wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the company! If it's inauthentic though, employees can smell it from far away.

I have no doubt it's meant in good faith at many companies, but it's almost sure to be used unfairly. A lot of people, especially folks who don't feel safely part of whatever in-group, are going to be hesitant to push that policy, especially because being on vacation can be an imposition on your coworkers. I suspect you could implement the same policy in practice with less social anxiety by mandating N weeks of vacat…

In my experience limited PTO leads to burnout more often because employees could get paid more by taking fewer days off since their PTO is paid out when they leave. So some employees choose to continue working because they feel bad taking time off that technically decreases their potential pay.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#43

Post by dimeatree » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

My solution to burn out was to go down to part-time; I have been incredibly fortunate that my work place supported my decision to go down to 4 days a week, with the option to do 3 days for 3-6 months and keep my full pay - I was not expecting this.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#44

Post by MisterBastahrd » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #17

eatonphil wrote: post #3

> What do we do? Well, root out the real causes of burnout. If it’s not those top workplace issues, it may very well be the burn of extended, heightened stress. For employees surveyed, flexible work hours and mental health support were more popular than even a four-day work week or unlimited PTO. The point then is lots of professionals like their actual work, they just don’t like the restrictions and environment. Giv…

The passive-aggressive lie that is "unlimited PTO" is part of the growing toxicity of startup work environments.

In reality, the only person who has unlimited PTO is usually the CEO, because he's the only one who can afford to get away repeatedly.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#45

Post by Igelau » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #23

throw0101a wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of unions can be very 'by the book' and there can be malicious compliance. There can also be multiple unions with very specific roles. From a quick search: > If your booth is a 10×10 or smaller, you may install and dismantle your own exhibit – provided you meet these requirements: > 1. The Set-up can be accomplished in 1/2 hour or less. > 2. No tools are required. > 3. Individuals performing the work must be fu…

Certainly, there’s a lot of old entrenched unions who have come to rest on their past laurels and are now mired in bureaucracy and self-satisfaction. One would easily imagine a software engineering union to be the complete opposite of that, as such a union would be completely new and hungry.

And it will never ever go astray.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#46

Post by mcast » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #40

I think burnout is mostly related to a lack of intrinsic motivation / reward. When you're no longer deeply interested in what you're doing, it feels like a grind whether its 30 hours a week or 80.

There are many root causes for burnout, but companies not properly valuing and appreciating their employees is definitely a big one!

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#47

Post by dopidopHN » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

suzzer99 wrote: post #25

decebalus1 wrote: post #10

Bullshit. Vacation [1] IS the answer for burnout. Long vacations are even more ok for burnout. Sabbaticals are the most ok. Guess what a doctor would recommend you do if you're having health issues from burnout? If there's chronic burnout in your company/org then indeed, no amount of vacation will fix that. But neither would flexible work hours or mental health support. [1] Vacation means complete and total disconnec…

Agreed. We need European-style month-long vacations in the US. And sabbaticals every few years. Also we should start looking at 36 and 32-hour workweeks. We're 20x more productive than 40 years ago, yet still work the same hours or more for pay increases that barely keep up with inflation.

As a European living in the US since a decade. It starts to impact my mental health.

I went from 8 weeks / years to 4 or 5. Currently 3. Ha.

I cannot recharge the same way ( meaning : travel for weeks at a time, or chill hard for 2 weeks in a row )

It’s flexible all right. But I feel like I’m always working somehow. Work is near, lurking.

I’m nursing a nice little depression that I feel a road trip would cure easily. Too bad I need to keep my last week of vacation for Christmas week.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#48

Post by noirbot » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #17

eatonphil wrote: post #3

> What do we do? Well, root out the real causes of burnout. If it’s not those top workplace issues, it may very well be the burn of extended, heightened stress. For employees surveyed, flexible work hours and mental health support were more popular than even a four-day work week or unlimited PTO. The point then is lots of professionals like their actual work, they just don’t like the restrictions and environment. Giv…

The passive-aggressive lie that is "unlimited PTO" is part of the growing toxicity of startup work environments.

To me, the most important part of unlimited PTO isn't the "unlimitedness" but the fact that it's not something I'm having to log in a system. It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice.

My company just got rid of unlimited PTO for all the reasons people say they hate it - they didn't think people were taking enough PTO for their health, it was used unfairly, etc... Functionally now though, I have to file paperwork with 3 different groups to have someone approve even a single day off so they can make sure I'm not going over the number of days off that I have in accordance with my level and seniority. Thankfully my manager has essentially told us they don't care and we're still on unlimited because they don't want to do the paperwork either.

It's not to say that "unlimited" can't be toxic, but it's easy to forget how onerous other systems can be, which can lead to you taking less time off in the same way. One of my friends is the junior on their team on a fixed PTO system and is being forced to take nearly random days off now in order to have any at all because they didn't get their holiday plans in as early as their more senior team members, so now they're stuck with the dregs. Toxic cultures are gonna be toxic. The framing just changes the mechanism.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#49

Post by xmprt » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #23

throw0101a wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of unions can be very 'by the book' and there can be malicious compliance. There can also be multiple unions with very specific roles. From a quick search: > If your booth is a 10×10 or smaller, you may install and dismantle your own exhibit – provided you meet these requirements: > 1. The Set-up can be accomplished in 1/2 hour or less. > 2. No tools are required. > 3. Individuals performing the work must be fu…

Certainly, there’s a lot of old entrenched unions who have come to rest on their past laurels and are now mired in bureaucracy and self-satisfaction. One would easily imagine a software engineering union to be the complete opposite of that, as such a union would be completely new and hungry.

But a union will eventually slowly devolve into that example as more and more rules and restrictions are added. Unions have so many benefits but I feel like any time a union dictates how the work is supposed to be done I hate it. That's why I'm super conflicted. It feel like I'd lose a lot of flexibility afforded to me if I joined a union and had to start playing by their rules.

At the same time, I think software engineering is in a position where a lot of employees have the power to switch companies and have more control over how the work is done than other types of jobs. I can see people leaving jobs in mass or starting a union quickly if industry conditions ever get worse.

Re: Vacation isn’t the answer to employee burnout

#50

Post by sjs7007 » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

noirbot wrote: post #48

sneak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The passive-aggressive lie that is "unlimited PTO" is part of the growing toxicity of startup work environments.

To me, the most important part of unlimited PTO isn't the "unlimitedness" but the fact that it's not something I'm having to log in a system. It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice. My company just got rid of unlimited PTO for all the reasons people say they hate it - they didn't think people were taking enough PTO for their health…

> It's that usually I can just take off a Friday or a Monday here and there without any issue as long as I give a bit of notice.

I have fixed number of days but still can essentially do this.

> Functionally now though, I have to file paperwork with 3 different groups to have someone approve even a single day off so they can make sure I'm not going over the number of days off that I have in accordance with my level and seniority.

This sounds odd. Why can't you just have a system that tracks number of days and as long as you have the number of days 1-2 days shouldn't be an issue at all. I don't see how switching from unlimited to limited made this approval business necessary at all.