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Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

lapcatsoftware.com

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Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#151
post #52

Firefox Nightly is a pretty good browser imho Also it just so happens that there are extensions that allow you detailed (read: raw and editable) cookie data for each website you visit!

I use & love Firefox, too, but do note that the author's criticism directly applies to it, too: AFAIK, FF will not show you the individualized cookies, or all you to act on them individually. Now, as you say, you can download an extension (and indeed, I do!), but I think there is some merit to it being in the base app. (E.g., not having to trust an extension. But also, it's part of Firefox 's data, and FF should prov…

Firefox used to show individual site cookies in the Manage Data dialog, this was removed at some point.

Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#152
post #146

We're getting into the scary space now where it's becoming feasible for sites to insist on Chrome and drop support for other browsers. I've hit two such apps in the last month where not only did the app not work on FireFox, but the experience was completely broken (blank page, etc). So they aren't even bothering with enough testing to put up a "please use chrome" message. I use FireFox for everything personal and Chr…

Demand the break up of Google! Now!

Email your reps.

Tell them this is dangerous and that Google shouldn't be allowed to run the entire web. Take chrome away!

Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#153
"As far as I know, there's been no public discussion of this change, and Google employees may have accidentally leaked the information to me in my innocuous bug report."

There are constant changes to Chrome and these get pushed out in "updates" to selected groups of users, aka "Field Trials". I have never seen any public discussion of any of these changes prior to including them in automatic updates. What makes this change to user control over site data any different. In fact, I can recall years ago Chrome used to let users change Javascript and Cookies settings on a global or per site basis, and from the Address Bar not only a "Settings" page. Then, without any discussion or debate amongst end users, Google changed Chrome. (Note Javascript is needed to store site data via "LocalStorage".) Today, in "Guest mode" on a Chromebook, it's impossible for the user to disable Javascript or Cookies globally in Chrome. Being logged in to the Chromebook is a prerequisite for globally disabling Javascript or Cookies. There is never debate on these design decisions. These are dark patterns. How effective are user complaints at influencing Chrome development. Please cite evidence. Perhaps what we need are user-controlled solutions.

Side note: I can remember a time when it was considered a monumental task to get the entire web-using population to download a new/updated web browser. Almost like a flag day. Today, there is no need for a campaign to get users to "install the latest version of [web browser]." The concept of automating updates is great, but I am not a fan of today's software using "automatic updates" because the way in which developers are using it is user-hostile.

"In my opinion, this change is very unwelcome. It takes away a lot of information and control from the user. For what benefit?"

BEGIN Devil's advocate/"Google's advocate"

Since this is "the orange site", usually it begins with something like, "Googler here. Opinions are my own not Google's."

Our confidential studies show that individuals like the blog author comprise a minority of Chrome users. The majority of users are not aware of such "issues"; they do not publish blogs or give feedback to Google. By all accounts the majority remain satisfied with Chrome as they are not switching to alternatives. We have dominant market share. Our focus is on delivering the best experience for users. Lucky for us, this also happens to be the best experience for our customers, advertisers, and therefore the best outcome for Google. Its win-win-win. It would not be an efficient use of our limited resources to offer a version of the Chrome browser (e.g., field trial) that met the requirements of this blog author, but failed to meet the evolving requirements of Google. Altough we provide free services to our users, we are a business not a charity. If we fail, then the entire world suffers. However we are continually experimenting with improvements to the browser, e.g., based on lawsuits that governments file against us, and we are testing them on various segments of our user base, without needing the user's prior approval for every update. We believe this is the best use of Google's limited resources.

END Devil's advocate/Google's advocate

The orange site commenter's task should be to refute the Google advocate (or defend it). Or even better, give us a more entertaining/thought-provoking Devil's advocate. A fundamental rule of negotiation is that if one can understand the other side's arguments, then she will be far more effective at advancing her own arguments. ("It's difficult to determine Google's motivation for this change." Maybe that's intentional. Maybe Google does not want to open these decisions up for "debate" or negotiation with those affected, i.e., end users.)

"I hope to spur a public debate about it and give some pushback to Google before they make too much "progress" on the change in Chrome."

Good luck. Can someone remind us when that has ever worked before in bringing about changes by Google for the sole benefit of users.

With Privacy Sandbox/FLOC, it appears that debate did stop other browsers from adopting it, but it did not stop Chrome from adopting it.

The more interesting question IMO is what are the possible solutions and how well do they work in practice. For example,

1. Stop using Chrome

2. Use some Chrome extension that "solves" the problem

3. Complain about Chrome on a blog or in a forum and hope for the best

Personally, I have chosen to control site data outside the browser, using a forward proxy. The proxy software does not automatically update itself, it does not run "field trials", and it is not being sued by dozens of goverments. I do not have to make complaints on a blog to try to influence its development. Unlike a web browser from an online advertising funded entity, I have reasonable control over the operation of the software. Through the proxy I can control browsers like Chrome, including headers such as cookies and clear-site-data (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Cl...). Nonetheless, I fully subscribe to #1 as the current best solution.

Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#155

> By the way, before anyone runs off and yells "Switch to Safari" or something like that, keep in mind that Safari is actually in a worse state and doesn't have detailed cookie and site information at all. It does, but it's split between two places. You can see a list of all sites that have stored data in Preferences > Privacy > Manage Website Data... (no option to view here, just delete). You can also navigate to th…

What a weird design. Listing and viewing would often be done when you want to "clean things up, but not everything.

Disclosure: never used or saw safari, and i don't have a mac, nor the mac nature.

Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#156
post #146

We're getting into the scary space now where it's becoming feasible for sites to insist on Chrome and drop support for other browsers. I've hit two such apps in the last month where not only did the app not work on FireFox, but the experience was completely broken (blank page, etc). So they aren't even bothering with enough testing to put up a "please use chrome" message. I use FireFox for everything personal and Chr…

If someone says they are a developer but do not test other browsers I don’t take them very seriously as a developer at all.

I wholeheartedly think it’s a good idea to split browsers between work and personal just so to get familiar with other browsers.

Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has absolutely been used "in the wild". One particularly nasty strain of ad-block-evasion scripts would detect the developer tools being opened, and would reload the page and disable most of its features to prevent them from being analyzed.

Way back when, we thought about this for Firebug. One thing that came out of it was browsers started adding the console object (also because devs forgot to remove the calls on it). Even so, we added CSS and stuff to highlight elements and that was easily found. What do people look for today?

The two big ones are:

1. Watching window.innerHeight/innerWidth for sudden, large decreases, indicating that the user just opened the inspector.

2. Logging objects to the console with toString methods and checking if that method gets called.

Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#159
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome in 10 years will be like a TV... all you will be able to do is switch between a few hundred channels

Browser dev tools are more powerful now than ever before, and they're only a single key press away.

Dev tools are next... same argument... not many people use them.

Re: Google Chrome to remove detailed cookie and site data controls

#160
post #146

We're getting into the scary space now where it's becoming feasible for sites to insist on Chrome and drop support for other browsers. I've hit two such apps in the last month where not only did the app not work on FireFox, but the experience was completely broken (blank page, etc). So they aren't even bothering with enough testing to put up a "please use chrome" message. I use FireFox for everything personal and Chr…

I worked on a project that a company decided to be Chrome only. This was during times when IE was still popular. We were spending a lot of time on cross browser compatibility and at one point the start-up didn't have money to spend on that. We picked Chrome as at the time offered best performance and it was fairly easy to make the app look as intended. We had to help some customers install Chrome and after that we had amazing velocity and we could focus on features rather than worrying why some customers can't see something etc.
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