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Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

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Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#141

Post by cmckn »

lvspiff wrote: post #76

After reading the article one thing that struck me was the " internal candidates who were rejected after interviewing with the hiring manager were half as likely to exit as those rejected earlier in the process." Working at a fortune 100 top 10 company I've applied for multiple higher level positions after 5 years and multiple high marks on my reviews and not gotten 1 recruiter call. I did get with one recruiter and…

If you’re still on the fence at all, apply elsewhere today. If your current employer isn’t fulfilling your personal goals, you have zero obligation to wait around until they do. It’s just a job. If your current management would react poorly to you acting in your own interests, you probably don’t want to make a career with these people. If opportunities or rewards are only handed out under threat of an external offer, again—you don’t want to work with these folks.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#142

Post by pedrosorio »

plutonorm wrote: post #135
yaacov wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can’t get promoted internally, try getting promoted externally :)

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

Is this a UK thing? I think I’ve read this before on HN, “getting promoted from software engineer to manager is hard”.

It seems to be a cultural thing. In the US, the manager is not seen as “superior” necessarily and many people actively do not want to be promoted (and a bunch of kids pouring into the field every year) so getting a management position is not particularly hard, even if you’re under 30.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#143

Post by thinkharderdev »

vkou wrote: post #129
abalashov wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more fun in public institutions, e.g. universities, where a higher amount of perfunctory humouring of external candidates is required in order to create a somewhat more convincing appearance of an equitable search.

It's the natural consequence of a world where performance is difficult to measure, people are largely fungible, and next to nothing that you personally do will move the needle in whether your employer will be successful. In that situation, why wouldn't you hire and promote your friends? All of the incentives are aligned for doing just that.

How much of it is "hiring friends" vs just hiring someone you have better information about? A lot of people interview exceptionally well but it's always something of a crapshoot how well they will do in the actual job. But for an internal candidate you should have a lot better information on how well they performed in other roles. You can have actual frank conversations with their managers/coworkers instead of getting BS references from people the candidate themselves chose for you to talk to.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#144

Post by s1artibartfast »

vkou wrote: post #129
abalashov wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more fun in public institutions, e.g. universities, where a higher amount of perfunctory humouring of external candidates is required in order to create a somewhat more convincing appearance of an equitable search.

It's the natural consequence of a world where performance is difficult to measure, people are largely fungible, and next to nothing that you personally do will move the needle in whether your employer will be successful. In that situation, why wouldn't you hire and promote your friends? All of the incentives are aligned for doing just that.

I think this is an overly cynical take. Reputation and VERIFIABLE track record are what is being selected for here. If a hiring manager views this as known for a candidate, there is basically nothing someone else can do to complete. The hiring process simply isn't sufficient to do this fact finding.

In my org, managers aren't really friends, but they do have trust. A strong recommendation is impossible to overturn.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#145

Post by thinkharderdev »

plutonorm wrote: post #135
yaacov wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can’t get promoted internally, try getting promoted externally :)

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

Maybe it's a cultural thing but my experience has been the exact opposite. As a software engineer you have to actively avoid taking a management position after a few years at any given company.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#146

Post by tomtheelder »

plutonorm wrote: post #135
yaacov wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can’t get promoted internally, try getting promoted externally :)

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

Are you working at a large org? If you want internal mobility, particularly for IC -> manager in software eng, I would highly recommend moving to a startup. My experience at startups has generally been that the company can't convince enough of the engineers to move into management so the transition is extremely easy for those who are willing.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#147

Post by jnwatson »

thinkharderdev wrote: post #145
plutonorm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

Maybe it's a cultural thing but my experience has been the exact opposite. As a software engineer you have to actively avoid taking a management position after a few years at any given company.

Exactly. I’ve been dodging management positions for the last 21 of 23 years. I’ve had to leave two companies to do so.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#148

Post by yobbo »

vkou wrote: post #129
abalashov wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even more fun in public institutions, e.g. universities, where a higher amount of perfunctory humouring of external candidates is required in order to create a somewhat more convincing appearance of an equitable search.

It's the natural consequence of a world where performance is difficult to measure, people are largely fungible, and next to nothing that you personally do will move the needle in whether your employer will be successful. In that situation, why wouldn't you hire and promote your friends? All of the incentives are aligned for doing just that.

> why wouldn't you hire and promote your friends?

Furthermore, do you want your colleagues to be motivated by loyalty or by competition?

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#149

Post by fortuna86 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #144
vkou wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the natural consequence of a world where performance is difficult to measure, people are largely fungible, and next to nothing that you personally do will move the needle in whether your employer will be successful. In that situation, why wouldn't you hire and promote your friends? All of the incentives are aligned for doing just that.

I think this is an overly cynical take. Reputation and VERIFIABLE track record are what is being selected for here. If a hiring manager views this as known for a candidate, there is basically nothing someone else can do to complete. The hiring process simply isn't sufficient to do this fact finding. In my org, managers aren't really friends, but they do have trust. A strong recommendation is impossible to overturn.

It's the same reason why friends set up friends for dates. If you go "public" with apps, you can be setup with literally anyone. It often doesn't go well.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#150

Post by fortuna86 »

lhorie wrote: post #138
bdowling wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the positions was actually only posted for someone internally This is extremely common. A company can't allow for nepotism or favoritism, so it requires a public posting for any open position. Qualified external applicants see the posting and apply. The managers hire the internal candidate they wanted to hire anyway. It's all a huge waste of everyone's time. I'd bet that a large percentage of job postings ar…

> A company can't allow for nepotism or favoritism, so it requires a public posting for any open position It's not even just a feel-goody policy by dysfunctional HR depts. The US DoL literally requires a company to advertise a role for a position that is currently filled by a PERM labor certification applicant (which is required for green card applications).

Many parts of the USG require "veterans preference" for most positions, meaning they have no choice but to hire one. You can see the reasoning for it, but it limits your abilities to hire who you want.
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