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Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

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Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#91

Post by tomjen3 »

douglasisshiny wrote: post #13
exabrial wrote: post #6

This is truly great news, as we've need some controlled studies. However, _mandates_, literally threatening people with police violence, bodily or financial harm, is not the correct way forward. I think the best solution is improved mandates for airflow. It's a lot easier to improve airflow in a building than it is to police and enforce a mask mandate.

>However, _mandates_, literally threatening people with police violence, bodily or financial harm, is not the correct way forward. Maybe I'm missing something, but is this actually a thing? Who in the mainstream proposing police violence, bodily or financial harm? The worst I've heard (in the U.S.) is that a business may not allow you to enter if you're not wearing a mask, which is well within their right and reasona…

>Who in the mainstream proposing police violence, bodily or financial harm?

This is what you do whenever you propose a fine. Ultimately fines are paid because otherwise men with guns will threaten you if you don't hand over the money.

We spruce it up with layers and layers, but at the end of it if it comes down to it, it is enforced by men with guns.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#92

Post by GeekyBear »

Kiro wrote: post #44
GeekyBear wrote: post #36

Cloth masks are quite effective against viruses with a droplet based spread. Widespread mask use came as close to wiping out last year's Flu season as we've ever seen. >Amid COVID-19 pandemic, flu has disappeared in the US NEW YORK (AP) — February is usually the peak of flu season, with doctors’ offices and hospitals packed with suffering patients. But not this year. Nationally, “this is the lowest flu season we’ve h…

Flu was almost eliminated in Sweden as well and we had almost no mask usage. Feels like social distancing was the more important factor.

The issue is that the early measures we took with Covid were based on the false assumption that Covid has a droplet based spread.

Now that we know it is airborne, we have to change our focus.

An n95 mask can help filter the air you breathe and a cloth mask cannot.

In indoor public spaces, we don't need the security theater of disinfecting surfaces. That money would better be spent on improving ventilation.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#93

Post by asdff »

majormajor wrote: post #11
ch4s3 wrote: post #3

> There were significantly fewer COVID-19 cases in villages with surgical masks compared with the control villages. (Although there were also fewer COVID-19 cases in villages with cloth masks as compared to control villages, the difference was not statistically significant.) This aligns with lab tests showing that surgical masks have better filtration than cloth masks. However, cloth masks did reduce the overall like…

It's surprising to me that cloth masks can't even do the 11% of surgical masks. Which isn't much, but surgical masks are non-optimal for many reasons. Not to mention that this doesn't seem the same as "while wearing a surgical mask you only get 11% increase in protection" but is a population-level thing. There was still non-compliance that presumably lowered the efficacy. I would've intuitively guessed that the bette…

I'm just as surprised. I used to wear a cloth mask and switched to an n95. When I tried the surgical mask I was amazed at how poorly the thing fit along the cheeks and how hard it was to form a tight fit on the nose that wouldn't loosen immediately. Breathing through it offered no resistance at all, in contrast to your typical cloth or n95 that hug all sides of the mask pretty well to your face. I thought this was because surgical masks are meant to block flecks of spit off your tongue when asking for surgical tools, rather than aerosols from exhaling. Most people I see wearing surgical masks just put them over their ears and have it loosely covering the face, with large gaps along the sides and especially around the nose.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#94

Post by chitowneats »

slg wrote: post #81
timr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did all of those things, but this paper is about the effect of mask-wearing (surgical vs. cloth vs. none) on the rate of symptomatic seroprevalence in the groups. Kuldorff is right, and is just stating the top-line numbers from the paper.

>Free mask distribution and promotion reduced the proportion of people who reported COVID-like symptoms on average by 11 percent, which was driven mainly by the effects of surgical masks. Villages where cloth masks were distributed experienced a 5 percent reduction in symptoms, while villages where surgical masks were distributed saw a reduction of 12 percent. About a third (40 percent) of those who reported COVID-19…

"This report" does gloss over much of the results from the actual study. Here's the link to the paper:

https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publicati...

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#95

Post by tomjen3 »

learc83 wrote: post #34
douglasisshiny wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, _mandates_, literally threatening people with police violence, bodily or financial harm, is not the correct way forward. Maybe I'm missing something, but is this actually a thing? Who in the mainstream proposing police violence, bodily or financial harm? The worst I've heard (in the U.S.) is that a business may not allow you to enter if you're not wearing a mask, which is well within their right and reasona…

Libertarians like to make this argument about any government enforcement action. If the government tells you that you can't play loud music after 10pm and you do it anyway, eventually someone will issue you a citation. If you refuse to pay that, eventually you'll get a court summons. If you fail to appear, eventually a police officer may arrest you. If you resist, they will use force to make you comply. It's a bit hy…

It isn't a gotcha, it is just thinking through the second, third, etc order of what you are proposing.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#96

Post by barbazoo »

merpnderp wrote: post #52
barbazoo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this mindset at all. Temporarily masking up at pretty much zero impact to the user vs. upgrading all building's HVAC system.

But upgrading HVAC systems is far more effective.

Sure but is it realistic, especially in the short term?

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#97

Post by learc83 »

betwixthewires wrote: post #60
learc83 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians like to make this argument about any government enforcement action. If the government tells you that you can't play loud music after 10pm and you do it anyway, eventually someone will issue you a citation. If you refuse to pay that, eventually you'll get a court summons. If you fail to appear, eventually a police officer may arrest you. If you resist, they will use force to make you comply. It's a bit hy…

It's a pretty solid gotcha.

It's a terrible gotcha. It's only effective on people who already agree with you.

Imagine a town council meeting where someone is proposing a $25 fine for crapping on the sidewalk. And a libertarian pops and screaming "You're saying you want to use violence up to and including murder to keep our sidewalks clean!"

Again technically there is a hypothetical chain of causality from sidewalk crapping fine to bodily harm/murder, but no one other than another hardcore libertarian is going to be convinced by that argument.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#98

Post by [deleted] »

jaclaz wrote: post #80
majormajor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's surprising to me that cloth masks can't even do the 11% of surgical masks. Which isn't much, but surgical masks are non-optimal for many reasons. Not to mention that this doesn't seem the same as "while wearing a surgical mask you only get 11% increase in protection" but is a population-level thing. There was still non-compliance that presumably lowered the efficacy. I would've intuitively guessed that the bette…

> Intuitively I'd assume they'd be much more effective as they have better fit + higher filtration, but of course, confirmation would be great. I think that is really hard to say. IF they are properly fitted (that won't normally be the case). As I see it (as well intuitively) if the virus is transmitted "directly" by droplets then cloth, surgical or N95 won't make much difference from a clear plastic shield (as we ha…

[deleted]

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#99

Post by fma »

dragontamer wrote: post #30
nielsbot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems quite reasonable to wear a (K)N95 instead of a surgical mask. Slightly less comfortable, but yes, affordable for most.

That "K" means that my ears hurt after 2 hours though. Going for full N95 means that the strap goes all the way around my head and is way more comfortable for extended use (ex: airplane rides or whatnot)

There are "ear savers" you can get that'll turn the ear loops to headbands.

I'll admit I've tried the plastic & velcro ones and didn't like them - but I also don't wear them for hours at a time but just for quick trips so found them annoying to put on and off.

Re: Surgical masks reduce Covid-19 spread, large-scale Stanford study shows

#100

Post by barbazoo »

djrogers wrote: post #70
barbazoo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this mindset at all. Temporarily masking up at pretty much zero impact to the user vs. upgrading all building's HVAC system.

Temporarily? In what was is any of this temporary if COVID is going to be endemic? At some point we need a way forward, and that really shouldn’t require masks in all public settings. BTW - masks completely destroy my beard, so they’re not ‘zero impact’ by any means. ;-)

I have a beard myself, how could I have forgotten about that.

You're right, long term, improving ventilation is how to reduce exposure, in the meantime though, I don't think it's too much to ask to mask up.

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