Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#181

Post by adanto6840 » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 2:06 AM UTC

kook_throwaway wrote: post #177

mikepurvis wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Not steering into a stopped, highly visible emergency vehicle with its lights on? Humans do a lot of dumb, irresponsible things on the road, but this is not one of them.

It shouldn't even be a question, seriously? This cop[1] tells a lady not to stand between the vehicles because she will get killed if his patrol car gets hit, and seconds later it happens and he says "just like that". >this is not one of them. Yes[2], this[3] is[4] one[5] of[6] them[7]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZDIwaRWCl0 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97D3llj0KSQ [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=…

This is the reality of the situation and, frankly, should be a top-level comment. I don't really have a horse in this overall race but IMO your factual perspective is spot-on -- this has happened, plenty of times, by actual humans.

Just like anything else, it may not be common (or it may be 'uncommon') but, to say that it never happens, is plainly, clearly and objectively false.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#182

Post by wingineer » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #151

wingineer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO this is a good thing, and should be applied to all manufacturers of driver-assist technology. Tesla has certainly been at the bleeding-edge of overly optimistic and confusing marketing for their product, but others should be on alert too.

> Tesla has certainly been at the bleeding-edge of overly optimistic and confusing marketing for their product, but others should be on alert too. I think the word you're looking for is "dishonest."

I personally agree with you.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#183

Post by panick21 » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 2:26 AM UTC

asddubs wrote: post #169

panick21 wrote: post #135

This not a feature that Autopilot or any other of the lane keeping systems have at the moment. If we are going to say that this is an issue then pretty much all lane keeping systems would have to be outlawed. If it is really impossible for people to pay attention without their hands on the wheel at all the time then all lane keeping must be abolished or a standard needs to be established what 'paying attention' means…

>- Only allow any kind of lane keeping if a comprehensive testing that they can detect any obstetrical of any kind and have emergency breaking. This of course would simply mean less such system would be deployed as most companies don't have practical scalable solution for this as of yet. probably this. it's a nice feature but it lulls you into a false sense of security and just doesn't seem to mesh well with human na…

I'm just not sure this is objectively true. Many people on HN seem convinced that there is nothing between all human and all machine that is better but I don't really think this is based on a solid evidence.

I'm also not sure how to verify that.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#184

Post by Dylan16807 » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 6:01 AM UTC

_jal wrote: post #120

madamelic wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The horrible truth is that if autonomous driving can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now so we should keep it and accept that crashes will occur much like they do now with humans in sole control. There's no reason to kill autonomous driving just because gen 1 - 50 isn't perfect but is an improvement on current driving methodology. Giving a one-line sentence of what happened disregards other variables such…

>can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now so we should keep it and accept So I take it you would be fine with the nightmare version of Apple's phone scanner, continuously scanning your devices for thoughtcrime? After all, "If it saves just one child..." Any time I hear emotional appeals that ignore the cost side of the equation, I look for a financial motive.

Let's rephrase. If the important upsides and downsides are all represented in the number of traffic fatalities, and that number goes down, then that's good.

The problem with the Apple system is significant downsides that are completely separate from CSAM.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#185

Post by kwhitefoot » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 7:04 AM UTC

ahahahahah wrote: post #175

noslenwerdna wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your honesty. Hopefully the NHTSA is also going to investigate the many other cars with traffic aware cruise control, which have the same problem with stationary vehicles. I was driving my Rav4 with TACC enabled, and it would have crashed into a column of stopped cars if I hadn't noticed in time and intervened.

Tesla has something like 1000x greater rate of hitting stationary emergency vehicles. The fact that all the other cars have the same issue with tacc actually points even more strongly to something being wrong with Tesla.

> 1000x greater rate

What's your denominator? Is this per year or per kilometre driven with TACC active?

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#186

Post by Piskvorrr » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #89

Piskvorrr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far fewer objects to hit in the air: disengagement means "keep going this way," rarely "and crash into an eventual obstacle". Plus, their early safety record is written in blood like everything else is.

> Plus, their early safety record is written in blood like everything else is. Yeah, and that's how it's going to be with car autopilots. Which is why it pisses me off that people want to stop progress on it.

Interesting typoes in "be unwilling test subjects". Feel free to volunteer, though. Elaine Herzberg sure didn't.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#187

Post by Piskvorrr » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #71

Piskvorrr wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is...linking a Wikipedia article? Doesn't quite compute.

Was a copy / paste failure. Meant to grab this link: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06/why-emergency-braking-s...

If you mean "the software is too stupid to be useful here, so let's ignore a whole class of issues, potentially with lethal consequences; abracadabra, it's SEP now", I agree. OTOH, this stretches the meaning of "good" a little bit.

(thanks for the link correction)

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#188

Post by deschutes » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

matt123456789 wrote: post #76

duxup wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect humans are really bad when they only have to sorta pay attention and it results in just not paying attention a great deal of the time. I'm not sure that's fixable on the human end.

The question is, how much of that is Tesla’s fault? They’re an EV company, not a psychology consultancy. We don’t hold gun manufacturers or alcohol companies liable when people do stupid things with their products, despite the best efforts of their marketing divisions. Granted “pull trigger get bullet” is much simpler than the Autopilot response.

It's absolutely their fault. Folks have been saying from day 1 that aviation has dealt with this very problem. Telsa should know since they're trying to claim they mean autopilot in the technical rather than colloquial sense.

The only reason they haven't faced that is because it's completely devestating to the technology they're trying to market.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#189

Post by noslenwerdna » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

ahahahahah wrote: post #175

noslenwerdna wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your honesty. Hopefully the NHTSA is also going to investigate the many other cars with traffic aware cruise control, which have the same problem with stationary vehicles. I was driving my Rav4 with TACC enabled, and it would have crashed into a column of stopped cars if I hadn't noticed in time and intervened.

Tesla has something like 1000x greater rate of hitting stationary emergency vehicles. The fact that all the other cars have the same issue with tacc actually points even more strongly to something being wrong with Tesla.

citation, please.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#190

Post by DennisP » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

__m wrote: post #165

DennisP wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is already putting a lot of resources into improving Autopilot and FSD. I'm not sure how regulators are going to help that process, and I think there are a couple possible pitfalls: (1) Will they take relative risk into account? If the car sometimes crashes but less often than humans, will that be sufficient, or considered a flaw because it's not perfect and regulators hate looking bad? (2) Will they take progr…

I never crashed into a stationary vehicle or had a crash. I want a FSD vehicle to be at least as safe as me, not some bad or drunken driver, that's what FSD should be measured against.

If the FSD vehicle is safer than the average driver, but not as safe as you, then you should want the FSD to be allowed by regulators. The average safety of other drivers will increase, lowering your chance of an accident, without degrading your own driving if you don't use FSD yourself.