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Stop Death Shaming

theatlantic.com

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Re: Stop Death Shaming

#81

Post by totetsu »

As soon as laugh at someone's death, and make judgements on if they deserved it or not, we devalue Human life. That can't be a net positive. No matter what we think of their behavior. .. once your laughing at death, where is the philosophical barrier between that and seeing disabled people as useless eaters?

The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so.

If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#82

Post by SquishyPanda23 »

flaque wrote: post #69
SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same can be said of any fear that causes someone to hurt people. The abusive husband has a reasonable fear of being abandoned. The white supremacist has a reasonable fear of losing their jobs to competition. Etc etc Being able to give a casual explanation for the behavior doesn't justify it. At some point people have an obligation to not harm others.

The difference is that it doesn't matter if the behavior is justified. The only thing that matters is getting them vaccinated. Even if you have to forgive them, even if you have to give them sympathy they don't deserve. Shaming doesn't work when the half population is unvaccinated. You actually have to convince people, even if they don't deserve the effort. Because if you don't get them vaccinated, many people will d…

Hey, sorry I missed the statement in the original post where you called them irrational. Apologies for not reading more carefully. In that sense my original response wasn't disagreeing with you.

I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 of people who don't believe in evolution, and the same 1/3 that believe that Covid is a hoax, or that you can beat it by taking horse dewormer.

Trying to fight this by winning over hearts and minds is like when serious scientists try to debate evolution with creationists. It's a waste of everyone's time. The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#83

Post by kcplate »

SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #82
flaque wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that it doesn't matter if the behavior is justified. The only thing that matters is getting them vaccinated. Even if you have to forgive them, even if you have to give them sympathy they don't deserve. Shaming doesn't work when the half population is unvaccinated. You actually have to convince people, even if they don't deserve the effort. Because if you don't get them vaccinated, many people will d…

Hey, sorry I missed the statement in the original post where you called them irrational. Apologies for not reading more carefully. In that sense my original response wasn't disagreeing with you. I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 o…

Your comment seems to make the assumption that this 1/3 unvaccinated are the same folks that are anti-evolution, Covid is a hoax, and ivermectin proponents. That is certainly some of the unvaxed and probably the most vocal, but you are leaving out a whole other diverse group of folks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-ame...

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#84

Post by usefulcat »

broberts01 wrote: post #2

They should be shamed. It would be fine if they didn't take the vaccine and stayed home but they don't do that. They go to the hospital and take up valuable bed space that I would argue thy don't deserve. I realistically don't know how much the intent is to persuade people to get the vaccine. As they point out, it wouldn't be a good strategy, but at this point, not much is going to change a person's mind over it anyw…

> They should be shamed.

On an emotional level, I can't help but agree. But.. frequently we have to choose between doing what feels good and doing what is effective. Assuming, of course, that we even notice when there is a difference between the two (which, frankly, there very often is).

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#85

Post by actually_a_dog »

HKH2 wrote: post #77
actually_a_dog wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's being coerced? People have the free choice to take or not take the vaccine. Both decisions have consequences. That is it. No coercion is involved.

Maybe there's no coercion where you live, but where I live some people who are unvaccinated get a fine in a form of a forced test every two weeks that they have to pay for, no matter how risk-averse they are. A vaccinated socialite is far more of a problem than an unvaccinated loner.

Those are called "consequences." You make your choice, you are responsible for it, both the unvaccinated and the "vaccinated socialite" you want to demonize. Do you think you, or the "vaccinated socialite" should be able to opt out of your responsibility to participate in a common sense public health measure without consequences?

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#86

Post by JohnTHaller »

I don't know anyone personally who has been able to convince an anti-vaxxer/vaccine hesitant person to get vaccinated. My friend's unvaccinated sibling died of Covid-19 a few days ago. Sibling wasn't high risk or older. They had argued about it last month. Sibling was consuming conservative media and surrounded by similar folks.

The vaccine didn't work on my Dad. He's on immunosupressive meds so he doesn't reject my kidney. There are hundreds of thousands of American organ recipients just like him. And cancer patients. And HIV+ folks. Etc. He got the newly approved 3rd dose within 24hrs of it being approved. We're hoping he has some antibody response to it.

I understand the death shaming, at least when it comes to people who were actively spreading misinformation. As an example, the conservative radio host who dubbed himself "Mr AntiVax" who just died of Covid-19. The ones grifting off human suffering. It's a place for your anger at the unvaccinated to go.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#87

Post by Gibbon1 »

totetsu wrote: post #81

As soon as laugh at someone's death, and make judgements on if they deserved it or not, we devalue Human life. That can't be a net positive. No matter what we think of their behavior. .. once your laughing at death, where is the philosophical barrier between that and seeing disabled people as useless eaters? The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic…

I've been saving my ire for business, media, and political leaders pushing denialism for ideological and crass personal/political reasons. The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.

On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#88

Post by _3u10 »

Smoosh wrote: post #54
_3u10 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that it spreads faster amongst the unvaccinated it’s the vaccines that are prolonging it. The entire flatten the curve narrative is about making it last as long as possible. With deltas R value of 5 to 8 it could be over by Christmas even with vaccines and masks.

> entire flatten the curve narrative is about I thought it was about reducing total deaths by not overloading health care services.

Given the capacity of hospitals to treat everyone, assuming we can max them out, it takes about 40 years til everyone has it, assuming in those 40 years, there are no additional births.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#89

Post by totetsu »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #87
totetsu wrote: post #81

As soon as laugh at someone's death, and make judgements on if they deserved it or not, we devalue Human life. That can't be a net positive. No matter what we think of their behavior. .. once your laughing at death, where is the philosophical barrier between that and seeing disabled people as useless eaters? The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic…

I've been saving my ire for business, media, and political leaders pushing denialism for ideological and crass personal/political reasons. The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind. On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungove…

Even the old hat anarchists of NZ are all for lockdowns and vacation.

That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#90

Post by flaque »

SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #82
flaque wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that it doesn't matter if the behavior is justified. The only thing that matters is getting them vaccinated. Even if you have to forgive them, even if you have to give them sympathy they don't deserve. Shaming doesn't work when the half population is unvaccinated. You actually have to convince people, even if they don't deserve the effort. Because if you don't get them vaccinated, many people will d…

Hey, sorry I missed the statement in the original post where you called them irrational. Apologies for not reading more carefully. In that sense my original response wasn't disagreeing with you. I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 o…

> The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.

I agree with this, but not necessarily for the same reason.

I think this gives a whole lot of people a very clear and easy way to feel like they were still “right”, but to also get vaccinated.

They can blame someone for “forcing” them, but still get vaccinated. This is especially important if they have previously told many people that “they’re not getting the vaccine”.

It lets them out of commitments, and makes them more receptive to real information. Since, when it starts to feel more like you’re going to get the vaccine at some point, you’re more willing to rationalize towards making that okay, rather than rationalizing reasons why not getting the vaccine is okay.

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