Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#171

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

PavleMiha wrote: post #117

Spare_account wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I'm not sure how I missed that. >I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver. As I understand it, we're not expected to trust the current incarnation of Tesla Autopilot. We're supposed to be ready to intervene in case it screws up. I'd be interested to know how long the drivers of the 12 Teslas in these accidents had to intervene but didn't (how long was it obvious Autopilo…

My problem with this is that we have little proof that people are any good at this sort of task (i.e. monitoring something without intervening for really long stretches of time). So if data show that people keep failing at it we have to take a look and decide that it's not a good system, not that the people are at fault.

Even more than that, we actual have multiple studies demonstrating that people are actively bad at this sort of task.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#172

Post by lesuorac » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

matt123456789 wrote: post #76

duxup wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect humans are really bad when they only have to sorta pay attention and it results in just not paying attention a great deal of the time. I'm not sure that's fixable on the human end.

The question is, how much of that is Tesla’s fault? They’re an EV company, not a psychology consultancy. We don’t hold gun manufacturers or alcohol companies liable when people do stupid things with their products, despite the best efforts of their marketing divisions. Granted “pull trigger get bullet” is much simpler than the Autopilot response.

> We don’t hold gun manufacturers or alcohol companies liable when people do stupid things with their products

We do though.

gun manufacturers sell firearms that need ~10lbs force to shoot (~2x normal) to law enforcement so keep accidental discharges down.

alcohol companies maybe but there are "Alcohol Server Liability Laws" where a bar/etc can be held liable for damages caused by somebody who got drunk at their bar/etc.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#173

Post by vmladenov » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

hnthrowaway8493 wrote: post #139

madamelic wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The horrible truth is that if autonomous driving can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now so we should keep it and accept that crashes will occur much like they do now with humans in sole control. There's no reason to kill autonomous driving just because gen 1 - 50 isn't perfect but is an improvement on current driving methodology. Giving a one-line sentence of what happened disregards other variables such…

>if autonomous driving can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now so we should keep it and accept that crashes will occur This argument ignores the reality of driving: by being a competent, attentive, careful driver you can avoid many classes of accident. Crashes are all about fault, and as a safe driver you can avoid most at-fault accidents. You get to avoid all the self-inflicted damage of drunk/incapacita…

> This argument ignores the reality of driving: by being a competent, attentive, careful driver you can avoid many classes of accident.

It’s funny you use the word reality since this is completely at odds with driving in America. You’re comparing an idealized world of competent drivers to the real world where there are basically no barriers to getting a license and everyone is on their phone behind the wheel. Unless you advocate for stricter licensing and more police enforcement against inattentive driving with equal vigor, this line of reasoning doesn’t hold.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#174

Post by mikepurvis » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

kook_throwaway wrote: post #147

mikepurvis wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this argument in abstract, but I don't think it's fair when we're talking about obviously unsafe behaviour that literally no human driver should ever do, except in cases of like, extreme medical distress. It's about the unknown unknowns. If you have Teslas slamming into stopped emergency vehicles with their lights on, and you don't know why, what else don't we know about their ability to perceive and reason abo…

Humans should never do it, but I'd be surprised if it happened less than once a week.

Really? Not steering into a stopped, highly visible emergency vehicle with its lights on?

Humans do a lot of dumb, irresponsible things on the road, but this is not one of them.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#175

Post by ahahahahah » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

noslenwerdna wrote: post #143

meepmorp wrote: post #2

> The safety agency informed Tesla weeks ago that it was looking into the spate of crashes in which Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot failed to detect stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights. The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday, when a Model 3 hit a police cruiser that had stopped behind a car that had broken down on an interstate in Orlando, Fla.…

Thanks for your honesty. Hopefully the NHTSA is also going to investigate the many other cars with traffic aware cruise control, which have the same problem with stationary vehicles. I was driving my Rav4 with TACC enabled, and it would have crashed into a column of stopped cars if I hadn't noticed in time and intervened.

Tesla has something like 1000x greater rate of hitting stationary emergency vehicles. The fact that all the other cars have the same issue with tacc actually points even more strongly to something being wrong with Tesla.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#176

Post by brk » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #45

brk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just did a 1,500 mile round-trip journey to visit family. Because of the Tesla stuff, I was casually aware of roadside emergency vehicles moreso than usual. We passed 28 police/fire/emergency vehicles that were next to our travel lane. I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. By this point, there must be 1M+ incidents of Tesl…

>I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. How do you know all of them were on autopilot? >12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases. It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into, and an average attentive human driver is the ab…

>How do you know all of them were on autopilot?

I don't, but statistically speaking, some of them likely were.

Tesla has shipped about 1.6M units globally, with most of those in the US. Let conservatively estimate half of those stayed in the US, and half of that half have used autopilot frequently enough for a high degree of opportunity of these kinds of crashes. That is still 250,000 vehicles. 12 of those being involved in crashes is a pretty low number, and we also do not know how many scenarios they avoided that a human might have missed.

> It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into

What is your definition of "normal attentive human"? There are tons of studies showing how humans suck at long-term tasks that are repetitive or non-engaging (like highway driving). People get distracted all the time while driving and cause accidents. Sure an "attentive" human would not run into a police vehicle, but there are not enough of those on the road most days.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#177

Post by kook_throwaway » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #174

kook_throwaway wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans should never do it, but I'd be surprised if it happened less than once a week.

Really? Not steering into a stopped, highly visible emergency vehicle with its lights on? Humans do a lot of dumb, irresponsible things on the road, but this is not one of them.

It shouldn't even be a question, seriously?

This cop[1] tells a lady not to stand between the vehicles because she will get killed if his patrol car gets hit, and seconds later it happens and he says "just like that".

>this is not one of them.

Yes[2], this[3] is[4] one[5] of[6] them[7].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZDIwaRWCl0

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97D3llj0KSQ

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV5FrWTATDY

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loex5U9zD0s

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khz9hlpvhko

[6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyaa6zEHZ2Q

[7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piT4lZBGU4w

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#178

Post by cptskippy » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 12:08 AM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #166

cptskippy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is with the sensors, not the AI, and occurs across the industry and isn't exclusive to Tesla. Volvo's Pilot Assist has the same short comings. https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/

From my reading of your link you are wrong. How a code that decides what to ignore or not is a sensor issue? Sensors tell you that there is something in front, sure maybe is a sudden thing and there is no velocity/acceleration vector for a few moments but the object is detected ...the software DECIDES what to ignore. The example where a car changes slane and the code ignores any static object in front of that car see…

> How a code that decides what to ignore or not is a sensor issue?

I guess "Sensor Module" would be a more accurate description.

Most automotive systems are designed as a series of modules that function independently but jointly form a system. They either broadcast or consume messages over the CAN BUS.

The Volvo V60 for example has a Forward Sensor Module, the radar, which outputs a handful parameters like Primary Target Range, Voltage, and Automatic Alignment Offset. It's the responsibility of other body modules to consume that data. The Closing Velocity Module might then broadcast Acceleration related messages which intern would be picked up by the Adaptive Cruise Control Module. Or it might broadcast Collision Warning Messages which the Stereo Module reads and responds by blaring a warning noise out the speakers and also the Brake Control Module receives and applies the brakes.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#179

Post by CultMember001 » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #129

meepmorp wrote: post #2

> The safety agency informed Tesla weeks ago that it was looking into the spate of crashes in which Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot failed to detect stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights. The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday, when a Model 3 hit a police cruiser that had stopped behind a car that had broken down on an interstate in Orlando, Fla.…

The fact that Tesla and Elon have been fighting these autopilot errors in completely the wrong way is the primary reason the feds should be involved. I have been using autopilot in Nissan. If the car were to crash into an ambulance light going off I would not be able to predict it and stop it from happening quickly enough. I just have a whole lot of trust in some basic things the car does. And this is one of those ca…

We should not allow the Fed to stifle innovation and technological progress. If we are not willing to take risks, then we will never be able to reach out true potential of becoming a truly advanced space faring civilization and a multi-planetary species. The NHTSA does not have the technological capability to understand advanced AI used in Autopilot and Full Self Driving and they should stop their interference immediately. I have Tesla and I bought the Full Self Driving package. I believe it is far more valuable than the current price. I am willing to pay 30 times more for Full Self Driving.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#180

Post by CultMember002 » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 1:42 AM UTC

We should not allow the Fed to stifle innovation and technological progress. If we are not willing to take risks, then we will never be able to reach out true potential of becoming a truly advanced space faring civilization and a multi-planetary species. The NHTSA does not have the technological capability to understand advanced AI used in Autopilot and Full Self Driving and they should stop their interference immediately. I have a Tesla and I bought the Full Self Driving package. I believe it is far more valuable than the current price. I am willing to pay 30 times more for Full Self Driving.