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Stop Death Shaming

theatlantic.com

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Re: Stop Death Shaming

#71

Post by devwastaken »

We also have to stop shaming information, and the people who want to discuss it.

In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue".

You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people.

If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines.

That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#72

Post by cercatrova »

crazy_horse wrote: post #66
cercatrova wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death is of their own creation. They literally chose to die, and moreover, they chose to take actions that would harm other people. How could I have sympathy for someone who actively chooses to harm others and succumbs to their own demise?

You don't have to. I think there's a difference between that and chasing down posts on Facebook so you can gloat over their death.

Yeah you're right. I think I'm just too tired of people killing others and dying themselves that I'm just starting to feel schadenfreude instead of sympathy.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#73

Post by mioasndo »

emilsedgh wrote: post #60
mioasndo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your argument is? That pleasure is what determines if something is ok to do? People have reasons for not taking a vaccine the same way people have reasons for drinking. They have their own reasons, it is their choice.

Comment above me claimed we should have sympathy for unvvacinated people [that have access to vaccine] who die, just like we do sympathize with people who die due to smoking, drinking, etc. I argued that being vaccinated is not comparable to those, because unlike them, your body doesn't have any urge to not vaccinated. It's very easy to get vaccinated. It's just a stupid decision.

Not getting vaccinated is a stupid decision, but smoking is not? Or you think people are spontaneously addicted to smoking, drinking, drugs? Or you think that people randomly decide to not get the vaccine because they just wake up stupid one day? Guess what, in a free society people can choose what they put in their bodies, regardless of how much pleasure you think they get from it, or how stupid you think it is.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#74

Post by ogogmad »

InvaderFizz wrote: post #32
ogogmad wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Darwin Awards" once had an unnerving degree of pop culture acceptance. [edit] They might still.

IIRC, Darwin Awards were always targeted at singular instances of actions that could be charitably described as unwise. What is happening today is just the use of anything for the advancement of tribal signaling and catharsis derived from the suffering of the "other." It exists on every side, acceptability of these behaviors depends largely on in-group vs out-group status of the perpetrator.

On the subject of Darwin Awards, that website didn't have a very good rationalisation for celebrating those people's deaths, except for some social Darwinian bullshit. At least here, they sort of seem to have one.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#75

Post by lotsofpulp »

bazooka_penguin wrote: post #9
lotsofpulp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The context is different when there are issues with hospital capacity and there is a known solution that costs nothing to prevent hospitals’ from being overburdened.

The context is the same in regards to the self afflicted conditions he mentioned

The context is not the same since those conditions are not causing hospitals to surpass capacity in the short term.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#76

Post by kcplate »

flaque wrote: post #27

It’s worth noting that, even if you think shaming encourages people to get vaccinated, these stories are still bad because they are almost never seen by the people who you’re trying to shame. Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital. The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who has…

> A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.

Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#77

Post by HKH2 »

actually_a_dog wrote: post #53
tomohawk wrote: post #19

It's amazing how years of anti-vax nonsense went nowhere. But, in a few months, all of this shaming and politicizing have done so much damage. Public health rests on trust, not mocking, not shaming, not coercion.

Who's being coerced? People have the free choice to take or not take the vaccine. Both decisions have consequences. That is it. No coercion is involved.

Maybe there's no coercion where you live, but where I live some people who are unvaccinated get a fine in a form of a forced test every two weeks that they have to pay for, no matter how risk-averse they are.

A vaccinated socialite is far more of a problem than an unvaccinated loner.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#78

Post by falcolas »

flaque wrote: post #63
otterley wrote: post #18

Stop telling people to stop doing things. It's very rude. Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead.

If you shame people, they dig in their heels. If you care about stopping the pandemic, you need to create an environment in which someone can safely stop believing their falsehoods. You actually have to convince people, regardless of whether or not they deserve your effort in convincing them.

Human history, and studies of human behavior, show that “convincing” people with logic and facts largely doesn’t work.

Their worldview needs to change. And little changes worldviews better than a personal existential threat.

Like death.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#79

Post by gmuslera »

If they are dead you are not talking to them. You are talking with the people that did the same as them, and are still alive (and with a bit of luck, that didn't got the disease yet).

And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.

Re: Stop Death Shaming

#80

Post by dundarious »

Ironic reversals are funny. e.g., Looney Tunes.

Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”.

It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny.

Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.

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