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Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

nytimes.com

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Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#121

Post by ghaff »

Spare_account wrote: post #106
ghaff wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's asserting that a normal attentive driver won't crash into a stationary emergency vehicle under remotely normal weather/road conditions. And, personally, I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver.

Thanks, I'm not sure how I missed that. >I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver. As I understand it, we're not expected to trust the current incarnation of Tesla Autopilot. We're supposed to be ready to intervene in case it screws up. I'd be interested to know how long the drivers of the 12 Teslas in these accidents had to intervene but didn't (how long was it obvious Autopilo…

The challenge, which no one has a good answer for, is that if you do a "good" job of automating something, people will zone out. It's just how we're wired.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#122

Post by [deleted] »

ghaff wrote: post #99
Spare_account wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into Can you clarify this please? Are you asserting that prior to the 12 Tesla incidents, there weren't any crashes into stationary emergency vehicles?

No, he's asserting that a normal attentive driver won't crash into a stationary emergency vehicle under remotely normal weather/road conditions. And, personally, I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#123

Post by matt123456789 »

SerLava wrote: post #85
matt123456789 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is, how much of that is Tesla’s fault? They’re an EV company, not a psychology consultancy. We don’t hold gun manufacturers or alcohol companies liable when people do stupid things with their products, despite the best efforts of their marketing divisions. Granted “pull trigger get bullet” is much simpler than the Autopilot response.

It's not "doing a stupid thing" though Fundamentally any life form has a slower reaction when they have to notice an issue and start to take motor control. Versus already being in control and simply not causing the issue. They are not just "an EV company" they are making a guidance system for thousands of high speed metal death machines. They BETTER consult some psychologists. This is a really bizarre thing to say.

You either misread my comment or you’re attacking a straw man argument. I said “they’re not a psychology consultancy”, NOT “I hope they don’t consult psychologists”.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#124

Post by garyfirestorm »

yifanl wrote: post #59
guhidalg wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s also 12 than any normal attentive human has gotten into Are you comparing a fleet of cars driving millions of miles to the performance of one ostensibly good driver? Ok, I guess we’ll need perfect systems, see you after the heat death of the universe.

There's never going to be a perfect comparison when the same AI can drive every car in the fleet at the same time, whereas one human brain can drive at most one car at a time.

Yeah but the issue is at hand is specifically 12 cars. You can put 12 humans in cars and watch them brake before hitting emergency vehicles. If they’re claiming AI is better than humans then it’s important to understand why these 12 are so bad.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#125

Post by grondo4 »

ghaff wrote: post #99
Spare_account wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into Can you clarify this please? Are you asserting that prior to the 12 Tesla incidents, there weren't any crashes into stationary emergency vehicles?

No, he's asserting that a normal attentive driver won't crash into a stationary emergency vehicle under remotely normal weather/road conditions. And, personally, I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver.

Does it have to better than an attentive driver or the average driver? I figure if the Tesla has less crashes per mile than the average driver than that's a success?

Even if the accidents a Tesla does get into are ones that a normal attentive driver wouldn't get into, if it avoids just as many accidents that a normal attentive driver would get into isn't that enough?

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#126

Post by nilstycho »

simion314 wrote: post #80
lftl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the specific comment now, but on previous autonomous driving discussions here, it's been asserted that Tesla (and many other systems) simply can't reliably detect stationary objects at speed. If the systems actually did a naive, "that looks like a stationary object, I'm going to avoid it" they'd barely be able to move in a highway setting.

There are systems that can detect stationary objects, Tesla does not want to use those more reliable systems, so they use the programming methodology of tweaking tweaking the code when a bug appears and hope that was the last one. Sure some AI gurus will claim that humans can detect this objects only with 2 eyes but they forget to mention that behind those 2 eyes is a brain an actual intelligence that is aware of the…

> There are systems that can detect stationary objects, Tesla does not want to use those more reliable systems

What systems are you referring to? Lidar and radar systems can't reliably detect stationary objects as hazards, because most of the world is stationary and consequently gets filtered out.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#127

Post by yawaworht1978 »

Another point is, legal human operator liability or not, the agency has been alerted of 12 such incidents which could never, ever occur unless a human driver is asleep, fully drunk/under the influence of drugs, some sort of fight happened in the car or was distracted from heavy sunlight to the eyes or had to dodge a hazard or animal on the road.

Their way of thought is simply that if the software can't deal with what is trivial for humans, maybe a recall or better look is in order. I know, this is not trivial for software, it just looks to not technical people like something that should never happen, and if it does , they loose all the trust in it. Obviously, there are many bright engineers working at Tesla, not sure how this was deployed and how this slipped QA repeatedly.

This, the authority asks Tesla, before the authority has to answer to the voters , congress and media shows.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#128

Post by nilstycho »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #75

Tesla should never have named this Autopilot, and Elon should've remained silent about way overoptimistic promises. Sometimes, "coming soon" is a great answer, vagueness is a powerful tool to help with time demands of clients.

This was definitely a poor name in retrospect, but I can see why they chose the name. The current functionality of autopilot is in fact pretty similar to aviation autopilots. Unfortunately most of the public thinks that an autopilot can fly a plane unassisted, so they naturally expect "Autopilot" to drive their car unassisted.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#129

Post by nashashmi »

meepmorp wrote: post #2

> The safety agency informed Tesla weeks ago that it was looking into the spate of crashes in which Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot failed to detect stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights. The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday, when a Model 3 hit a police cruiser that had stopped behind a car that had broken down on an interstate in Orlando, Fla.…

The fact that Tesla and Elon have been fighting these autopilot errors in completely the wrong way is the primary reason the feds should be involved.

I have been using autopilot in Nissan. If the car were to crash into an ambulance light going off I would not be able to predict it and stop it from happening quickly enough. I just have a whole lot of trust in some basic things the car does.

And this is one of those cases where they should have been able to get this right after the first crash but they didn’t and now the feds have to get involved. A lesson on why we can’t have nice things.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#130

Post by u10242 »

grondo4 wrote: post #125
ghaff wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's asserting that a normal attentive driver won't crash into a stationary emergency vehicle under remotely normal weather/road conditions. And, personally, I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver.

Does it have to better than an attentive driver or the average driver ? I figure if the Tesla has less crashes per mile than the average driver than that's a success? Even if the accidents a Tesla does get into are ones that a normal attentive driver wouldn't get into, if it avoids just as many accidents that a normal attentive driver would get into isn't that enough?

Well, I'm an attentive driver, so I wouldn't use anything that drives worse than me.

A lot of people probably feel the same.

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