Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#101

Post by mikepurvis » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

guhidalg wrote: post #52

tw04 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. How do you know all of them were on autopilot? >12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases. It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into, and an average attentive human driver is the ab…

> It’s also 12 than any normal attentive human has gotten into Are you comparing a fleet of cars driving millions of miles to the performance of one ostensibly good driver? Ok, I guess we’ll need perfect systems, see you after the heat death of the universe.

I get this argument in abstract, but I don't think it's fair when we're talking about obviously unsafe behaviour that literally no human driver should ever do, except in cases of like, extreme medical distress.

It's about the unknown unknowns. If you have Teslas slamming into stopped emergency vehicles with their lights on, and you don't know why, what else don't we know about their ability to perceive and reason about the world that they're navigating in?

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#102

Post by dqpb » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

I'm curious what the data requirement will be. Is it just the segmented map? Is it the actual model plus all inputs for n-seconds leading up to the crash? Is it all training data that meets some threshold of similarity to the incident?

It would be nice if the investigation of these incidents resulted in an open standard for analysis and quality control of self-driving systems.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#103

Post by tenpies » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

Dumblydorr wrote: post #75

Tesla should never have named this Autopilot, and Elon should've remained silent about way overoptimistic promises. Sometimes, "coming soon" is a great answer, vagueness is a powerful tool to help with time demands of clients.

FTC should have obliterated Tesla from orbit the minute they called cruise control "Autopilot", and the Tesla beta opt-in fund "Full Self Driving", and any time Elon made any claim that the vehicle was going to be self-driving by X date.

This would have saved several lives, untold injuries, and millions in damages. It would have been disastrous for Elon's wealth and the market cap of Tesla, but then we could at least pretend there's still rule of law in the US.

Thankfully other jurisdictions have actual regulators and are telling Tesla that you cannot use fraudulent names, but who knows how much longer it will take for the US to join the rest of the world in this.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#104

Post by madamelic » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

meepmorp wrote: post #69

fallingknife wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say the same about airplane autopilots, but they have an amazing safety record.

The airline autopilot doesn't have to negotiate anything like the kind of hazards that a car driving system does. Also, pilot training, the presence of a whole flight crew to monitor and catch errors make for a completely different situation.

Not to mention you have to be licensed and spend hundreds of hours to share controls of a commercial plane.

Car AP is way harder than plane AP and saying "But planes can do it, why is Tesla so bad at this" is facetious.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#105

Post by CultMember001 » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #19

capableweb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 12 crashes into vehicles with flashing lights on them doesn't sound like great success from Autopilot, gonna be honest. I'm sorry, but how can you form an opinion so quickly? 12 crashes out of what? Any number? 12 crashes out of 10000000 scenarios sound like a pretty good record, while 12 crashes out of 15 scenarios indeed doesn't sound like a great success. But what information do you have that the rest of us does…

I still remember the days when the SciFi of the day sold robotic drivers as "they don't get tired, they don't make mistakes, they are relentless in their pursuit". Instead of that, we got robots that are apparently unable to avoid crashing into large vehicles with flashing lights. Sometimes. As usual, the future never ceases to disappoint me.

I believe that occasional fatal accidents are a small price to pay for the advancement of humanity into a multi-planetary species.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#106

Post by Spare_account » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #99

Spare_account wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into Can you clarify this please? Are you asserting that prior to the 12 Tesla incidents, there weren't any crashes into stationary emergency vehicles?

No, he's asserting that a normal attentive driver won't crash into a stationary emergency vehicle under remotely normal weather/road conditions. And, personally, I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver.

Thanks, I'm not sure how I missed that.

>I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver.

As I understand it, we're not expected to trust the current incarnation of Tesla Autopilot. We're supposed to be ready to intervene in case it screws up.

I'd be interested to know how long the drivers of the 12 Teslas in these accidents had to intervene but didn't (how long was it obvious Autopilot had screwed up before the impact).

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#107

Post by CultMember001 » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #99

Spare_account wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into Can you clarify this please? Are you asserting that prior to the 12 Tesla incidents, there weren't any crashes into stationary emergency vehicles?

No, he's asserting that a normal attentive driver won't crash into a stationary emergency vehicle under remotely normal weather/road conditions. And, personally, I'm not going to trust a system that isn't as good as a normal attentive driver.

I believe that occasional fatal accidents are a small price to pay for the advancement of humanity into a multi-planetary species.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#108

Post by rutthenut » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

madamelic wrote: post #92

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case, the correct solution is to shut Autopilot and all systems like it down, and charge their developers with reckless endangerment. A autonomous driving system which can't detect stationary obstacles is not an autonomous driving system: It's a murder machine. If they can't do this, they shouldn't operate, full stop.

The horrible truth is that if autonomous driving can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now so we should keep it and accept that crashes will occur much like they do now with humans in sole control. There's no reason to kill autonomous driving just because gen 1 - 50 isn't perfect but is an improvement on current driving methodology. Giving a one-line sentence of what happened disregards other variables such…

I do not agree with this argument

>> The horrible truth is that if autonomous driving can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now so we should keep it and accept that crashes will occur >>

As that '1 life' saved may be countered by a number of lives lost due to the system that might otherwise have survived.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#109

Post by simion314 » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

SerLava wrote: post #91

simion314 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are systems that can detect stationary objects, Tesla does not want to use those more reliable systems, so they use the programming methodology of tweaking tweaking the code when a bug appears and hope that was the last one. Sure some AI gurus will claim that humans can detect this objects only with 2 eyes but they forget to mention that behind those 2 eyes is a brain an actual intelligence that is aware of the…

Yeah they want a low unit cost on the camera system, so they are trying to machine learn their way out of the problem. It's not going to work. A self driving system needs to have a 3d understanding of it's environment. It's not acceptable to crash into paintings by Wile E. Coyote.

From what I understand there is also some code that is there to ignore static objects because maybe are signs or bridges and the AI is too stupid. So you have bad sensors with bad code combo.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#110

Post by a_square_peg » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

madamelic wrote: post #92

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case, the correct solution is to shut Autopilot and all systems like it down, and charge their developers with reckless endangerment. A autonomous driving system which can't detect stationary obstacles is not an autonomous driving system: It's a murder machine. If they can't do this, they shouldn't operate, full stop.

The horrible truth is that if autonomous driving can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now so we should keep it and accept that crashes will occur much like they do now with humans in sole control. There's no reason to kill autonomous driving just because gen 1 - 50 isn't perfect but is an improvement on current driving methodology. Giving a one-line sentence of what happened disregards other variables such…

“The horrible truth is that if autonomous driving can save 1+ life, it's better than what we have now”

This is not true at all and we have much higher standards than this. This is like saying if a vaccine cures Covid but manages to kill people at a rate slightly less than Covid, we should embrace it.