Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#41

Post by shkkmo » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

okl wrote: post #14

fallingknife wrote: post #4

> The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday But there are 4500 crashes every year, and that's only including ambulances ( https://www.ems.gov/pdf/GroundAmbulanceCrashesPresentation.p... pg 22). So why is Tesla being investigated for being involved in 0.25% of these crashes when they made up 3% of car sales in 2020? Also, radar ignores stationary objects on any car.…

No offense but that is whataboutism. I think every crash, where an investigation could prevent another crash in the future, should be investigated. Shouldn't Tesla "celebrate their mistakes" (yes, morbid, sorry) and see this as an opportunity to improve their product?

It isn't whataboutism to ask that statistics include the necessary context. The person you are replying to doesn't give a full and proper context, but that doesn't make attempting to provide that context "whataboutism".

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#42

Post by _ea1k » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

okl wrote: post #14

fallingknife wrote: post #4

> The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday But there are 4500 crashes every year, and that's only including ambulances ( https://www.ems.gov/pdf/GroundAmbulanceCrashesPresentation.p... pg 22). So why is Tesla being investigated for being involved in 0.25% of these crashes when they made up 3% of car sales in 2020? Also, radar ignores stationary objects on any car.…

No offense but that is whataboutism. I think every crash, where an investigation could prevent another crash in the future, should be investigated. Shouldn't Tesla "celebrate their mistakes" (yes, morbid, sorry) and see this as an opportunity to improve their product?

They should, but people here are afraid that this looks like a government overreaction that won't actually find an accurate result.

IMO, they are wrong and this will likely lead to guidance for all automakers, including Tesla. I doubt anything that comes out of this will be a problem for Tesla, if anything it might end up being harder for the others.

NHTSA is pretty reasonable most of the time.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#43

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #28

Let's ignore the larger point (which is that this is just one of a million possible edge cases where autopilot could systematically fail), I could absolutely see Tesla just bodging in a "If you see emergency vehicle lights flashing disengage" - it'd perfectly reasonable to say that you shouldn't be using autopilot in that situation because you should be paying attention and ready to react to the emergency vehicle.

It should warn and turn off in a LOT of situations imo; there was another accident in a construction zone where the car hit a barrier, for example. And there's the shared videos of people literally sleeping or sitting in the back seat of a Tesla on autopilot; the car should detect that and disable autopilot for an X amount of time.

Of course, at the same time the car should not play police; if someone is caught doing that, their license should be taken away from them.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#44

Post by fallingknife » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #36

meepmorp wrote: post #2

> The safety agency informed Tesla weeks ago that it was looking into the spate of crashes in which Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot failed to detect stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights. The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday, when a Model 3 hit a police cruiser that had stopped behind a car that had broken down on an interstate in Orlando, Fla.…

We just did a 1,500 mile round-trip journey to visit family. Because of the Tesla stuff, I was casually aware of roadside emergency vehicles moreso than usual. We passed 28 police/fire/emergency vehicles that were next to our travel lane. I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. By this point, there must be 1M+ incidents of Tesl…

> IMO, it is good that there is federal investigation into this

> seems our government agencies at large are not very good when it comes to properly understanding anything technology related, or making relevant decisions/rulings/etc. on these kinds of things.

Not sure how you think it's good then.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#45

Post by tw04 » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #36

meepmorp wrote: post #2

> The safety agency informed Tesla weeks ago that it was looking into the spate of crashes in which Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot failed to detect stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights. The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday, when a Model 3 hit a police cruiser that had stopped behind a car that had broken down on an interstate in Orlando, Fla.…

We just did a 1,500 mile round-trip journey to visit family. Because of the Tesla stuff, I was casually aware of roadside emergency vehicles moreso than usual. We passed 28 police/fire/emergency vehicles that were next to our travel lane. I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. By this point, there must be 1M+ incidents of Tesl…

>I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane.

How do you know all of them were on autopilot?

>12 crashes is 12 crashes too many, statistically speaking, but it's also a tiny tiny percentage of the total number of cases.

It's also 12 more than any normal attentive human has gotten into, and an average attentive human driver is the absolute floor for self-driving on public roads unless Tesla is going to go to the lengths GM has to ensure the person behind the wheel is remaining attentive.

>IMO, it is good that there is federal investigation into this. My main concern is that is seems our government agencies at large are not very good when it comes to properly understanding anything technology related, or making relevant decisions/rulings/etc. on these kinds of things.

I think they're good at understanding if Tesla loses complete public confidence in self driving that is a net-loss for humanity and technology, as well as a prime source of political shitstorm when people ask why something wasn't done sooner.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#46

Post by fallingknife » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #37

capableweb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 12 crashes into vehicles with flashing lights on them doesn't sound like great success from Autopilot, gonna be honest. I'm sorry, but how can you form an opinion so quickly? 12 crashes out of what? Any number? 12 crashes out of 10000000 scenarios sound like a pretty good record, while 12 crashes out of 15 scenarios indeed doesn't sound like a great success. But what information do you have that the rest of us does…

"I'm sorry, but how can you form an opinion so quickly?" It doesn't really matter. They're stationary objects; there's absolutely no reason, good or bad, for the algorithm to determine that the correct trajectory change is into the stationary object. Humans crash into stationary objects because they're lacking attention almost 100% of the time, whether it's because they're half asleep, drunk, texting, or distracted b…

There is absolutely a good reason for adaptove cruise control systems to ignore stationary objects: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/06/why-emergency-braking-s...

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#47

Post by mikejb » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #28

Let's ignore the larger point (which is that this is just one of a million possible edge cases where autopilot could systematically fail), I could absolutely see Tesla just bodging in a "If you see emergency vehicle lights flashing disengage" - it'd perfectly reasonable to say that you shouldn't be using autopilot in that situation because you should be paying attention and ready to react to the emergency vehicle.

As much as it would be a solution to Tesla's problem, it would impact Tesla's overall plan and strategy. Automatically disengaging when emergency vehicles are detected is a huge barrier in their selling strategy ("It can drive itself, it's just not allowed yet to for legal reasons, but soon").

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#48

Post by a_square_peg » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #6

meepmorp wrote: post #2

> The safety agency informed Tesla weeks ago that it was looking into the spate of crashes in which Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot failed to detect stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights. The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday, when a Model 3 hit a police cruiser that had stopped behind a car that had broken down on an interstate in Orlando, Fla.…

> 12 crashes into vehicles with flashing lights on them doesn't sound like great success from Autopilot, gonna be honest. I'm sorry, but how can you form an opinion so quickly? 12 crashes out of what? Any number? 12 crashes out of 10000000 scenarios sound like a pretty good record, while 12 crashes out of 15 scenarios indeed doesn't sound like a great success. But what information do you have that the rest of us does…

There is enough information here though.

These are situations where failure is not suppose to happen when the driver is paying attention. Given that the auto-pilot is always paying attention when operational, this becomes an unacceptable failure mode because it failed in the most rudimentary way - failure to perceive stationary obstacles and a display of complete lack of situational awareness.

For emergency responders on highways, there are means to reduce the risk of additional collisions by increasing visibility to oncoming drivers (markers, lights, etc.). If the auto-pilot is not able to perceive these even when paying attention, we do have a problem.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#49

Post by fallingknife » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

praestigiare wrote: post #39

fallingknife wrote: post #4

> The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday But there are 4500 crashes every year, and that's only including ambulances ( https://www.ems.gov/pdf/GroundAmbulanceCrashesPresentation.p... pg 22). So why is Tesla being investigated for being involved in 0.25% of these crashes when they made up 3% of car sales in 2020? Also, radar ignores stationary objects on any car.…

The poor statistics of this comment aside, if I drove into 12 emergency vehicles in a year, I can assure you I would also be investigated.

Unless, apparently, you were a car manufacturer that isn't Tesla.

Re: Tesla is ordered to turn over Autopilot data to a federal safety agency

#50

Post by yardie » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #36

meepmorp wrote: post #2

> The safety agency informed Tesla weeks ago that it was looking into the spate of crashes in which Tesla vehicles operating on Autopilot failed to detect stopped emergency vehicles with flashing lights. The regulator originally said it was looking into 11 such crashes. A 12th occurred on Saturday, when a Model 3 hit a police cruiser that had stopped behind a car that had broken down on an interstate in Orlando, Fla.…

We just did a 1,500 mile round-trip journey to visit family. Because of the Tesla stuff, I was casually aware of roadside emergency vehicles moreso than usual. We passed 28 police/fire/emergency vehicles that were next to our travel lane. I saw a number of Tesla vehicles on the road as well, each passing these same emergency vehicles, but not always in the same lane. By this point, there must be 1M+ incidents of Tesl…

I'm sorry but the general computer called your brain is not like the purposebuilt computer of Autopilot. 12 is too many for a computer who's only job is to literally look at the road and drive.