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The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

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Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#51

Post by bitexploder »

kirse wrote: post #49

Perfectionism is typically a defense mechanism of some sort. This post is trying to fix all the damaged fruit springing from the roots of perfectionism, like trying to stamp out every ant instead of killing the queen. Sometimes you grew up in a family with a harsh & critical parent, or rewards for progress were minimal, so a spirit of "well done!" is absent. Or maybe you had a personal trauma and the striving is an a…

Most of the techniques for “life philosophy” in the Bible are cribbed from Greek philosophy with a heap of mysticism stirred in to obscure it all. Just go to the source: the stoics and other Greeks. The dichotomy of control (serenity prayer) predates the Bible by some time, for example.

Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#52

Post by jodrellblank »

MauranKilom wrote: post #11

A few years ago, I made a new year's resolution to be more forgiving to myself. At the time, I would feel miserable at the end of the day for, say, not doing laundry even though I had resolved to do so. I would downright hate myself for not getting this simple task done despite having had the time. So, that year, whenever I would have such a thought, I'd tell myself that I forgive my past self. "It's ok!" And it has…

This is the basis of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT); hating oneself or forgiving oneself are behaviours of the mind (cognition), and the idea is that we can fall into negative behaviours and get stuck there, and can learn positive behaviours instead.

A realted sticking point is when we can't learn positive beahviours, because we don't want to give up the negative ones - e.g. "I deserve to hate myself for not doing the laundry, only a disgusting slob does no laundry and is happy about it, at least I have the virtue of self-hate" and then changing involves debugging why that behaviour is stuck and unsticking it.

Ten common cognitive distortions that lead to self loathing, anxiety, depression, and others are described here: https://www.verywellmind.com/ten-cognitive-distortions-ident...

Dr Burns' podcast talking through all the techniques he's developed for identifying and changing and overcoming these is here: https://feelinggood.com/list-of-feeling-good-podcasts/ he also has a new book out, and charges therapists for using his materials, but the podcast is entirely free.

I think Dr Burns' development of techniques to unstick the "I want to change but I don't deserve to change" predicament is something which could help lots of internet people who are depressed, anxious, miserable, self-loathing, and lots of people who have been going to therapists for years talking over issues but unable to change them, and is something that overlaps with what people want from meditation and from gurus like Eckhart Tolle, but is much more practical with techniques you can try (probably with a therapist, but maybe alone) and confirm whether they worked not in minutes rather than years.

Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#53

Post by bitexploder »

fswwi wrote: post #37
tellersid wrote: post #20

Not me. To me, what this article is describing is just poor mental health. On the other hand, I grew up in a nice middle class family but a family that was basically trivial to do better than. Maybe things would be different if I had a chip on my shoulder from growing up dirt poor or a chip on my shoulder from an ultra successful parent that is almost impossible to live up to.

> poor mental health This. And you can't change it simply by convincing yourself that your thoughts are irrational.

Labeling thoughts at all can be fraught with peril. Sometimes it’s just best to let them be thoughts. They come and go. I just try to guide and shape them on the “right” path that I think aligns with my goals.

Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#54

Post by jodrellblank »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #46
MauranKilom wrote: post #11

A few years ago, I made a new year's resolution to be more forgiving to myself. At the time, I would feel miserable at the end of the day for, say, not doing laundry even though I had resolved to do so. I would downright hate myself for not getting this simple task done despite having had the time. So, that year, whenever I would have such a thought, I'd tell myself that I forgive my past self. "It's ok!" And it has…

But if you don’t mind me asking—what happens when you, well, don’t have the laundry done, and you realize you actually really need a clean shirt? (Or whatever.)

At the risk of being ELIZA, what is it you are afraid will happen which you think self-hate is protecting you from? The answers are probably distorted by fear instead of a realistic appraisal of what will actually happen. How often do you "actually really need" a clean shirt as a matter of serious consequence? And when you do, do you really have no options? Could you beg one from a neighbour or buy one at short notice or wash one quickly? If you don't NEED one could you wear a jacket over a less clean shirt? If this is going to worry you could you keep a clean or unopened shirt in the closet for emergency "I didn't do any laundry" wear only, just to guard against this situation?

> "what happens when you, well, don’t have the laundry done, and you realize you actually really need a clean shirt? (Or whatever.)"

Sensible answer, ideally you say to yourself "I don't have a clean shirt, what options do I have?" and consider the best available option and use it, absent the self-hatred and judging and putdowns and bad feelings and stuff which isn't helping anyway.

[Edit: I missed something major in this response; it's not necessary to make all the bad feelings go away entirely and be happy with everything. It's more that you can choose - if feeling bad does help motivate you to do the laundry, keep some of it. It's the "I didn't do laundry, I'm 100% a terrible person, a lazy slob worse than everyone, I fail at everything I don't deserve to live, woe woe" spiral which is an overkill response. You might decide to keep 50% intensity self anger, or 10% intensity self-ticking-off or 5% intensity self-eye-roll. Whatever you decide is enough suffering to be motivating, if any.]

Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#55

Post by DoreenMichele »

I was diagnosed in my thirties with a congenital condition. I decided "I need to start making more Bs if I'm ever going to get anywhere."

Twenty years later, I look back on my high expectations and realize that I was inculcated with them in childhood and also got a lot of support in childhood for being able to hit those performance marks in school. Growing up and leaving home meant I still had high expectations but I didn't necessarily have the support I needed to meet them.

I still have high standards but I'm more able to embrace ideas like "The perfect is the enemy of the good" and "Anything worth doing is worth doing badly."

I'm happy at the moment with some of my accomplishments that probably don't look especially impressive to a lot of outsiders. Maybe they seem unpolished or not slick or not meeting some metric some outsider thinks matters. But they are meeting metrics I think matter, metrics that are hard to hit at all. And sometimes the fact that others think it's messy or second rate is a feature, not a bug, for my purposes.

Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#56

Post by daveevad »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #55

I was diagnosed in my thirties with a congenital condition. I decided "I need to start making more Bs if I'm ever going to get anywhere." Twenty years later, I look back on my high expectations and realize that I was inculcated with them in childhood and also got a lot of support in childhood for being able to hit those performance marks in school. Growing up and leaving home meant I still had high expectations but I…

> Anything worth doing is worth doing badly

TIL - Thanks for sharing that kernel.

Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#57

Post by kirse »

bitexploder wrote: post #51
kirse wrote: post #49

Perfectionism is typically a defense mechanism of some sort. This post is trying to fix all the damaged fruit springing from the roots of perfectionism, like trying to stamp out every ant instead of killing the queen. Sometimes you grew up in a family with a harsh & critical parent, or rewards for progress were minimal, so a spirit of "well done!" is absent. Or maybe you had a personal trauma and the striving is an a…

Most of the techniques for “life philosophy” in the Bible are cribbed from Greek philosophy with a heap of mysticism stirred in to obscure it all. Just go to the source: the stoics and other Greeks. The dichotomy of control (serenity prayer) predates the Bible by some time, for example.

Sure, if you want to extract the various proverbs, there's plenty of practical and related wisdom. But the stoics had nothing to do with Christ, who is the target of faith in the Bible. Further, the stoics hardly had disciples who were completely broke and yet carried their message far enough to end up sawn in two, tarred and lit on fire, crucified upside-down, beheaded, gutted by swords, etc.

Re: The goal of standards is to improve our future actions

#60

Post by rad_gruchalski »

galangalalgol wrote: post #50
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you don’t mind me asking—what happens when you, well, don’t have the laundry done, and you realize you actually really need a clean shirt? (Or whatever.)

speaking as a procrastinator. I wear a dirty shirt (or whatever). And no one cares, or probably notices, and the world doesn't implode.

Does it stop at not doing the laundry “or whatever”? Or does your procrastination sneak into other aspects of your life?
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