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Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

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Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#81

Post by bb123 »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #66
bb123 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of counterpoints (offered in good faith): > - the UK needs the import/export flow it was used to pre-brexit to keep their current life style. That is about goods, which are totally separate to immigration. > - the current british population doesn't seem very motivation to take back the job they delegated to immigration. Motivation has nothing to do with it. The employers offering these shitty jobs have gotte…

I'll upvote you because I love people being civil on HN. > That is about goods, which are totally separate to immigration. Yes, but you need trucks, boats, and loaders for those. A lot of the people dealing with that are immigrants. > The employers offering these shitty jobs have gotten used to being able to pay poor wages to cheap imported labour. Working in agriculture as always been low paid back breaking work. Th…

I guess I would then argue that your points one and two are the same, and therefore have a similar fix - that the lack of labour imports will impact standard of living (either through logistics, farming, or other unskilled work)

We need to pay more people to do these jobs, not rely on exploiting people from poorer nations to fill the gaps. I think the evidence suggests this is indeed happening. Wages are rising at their fastest rate on record.

I think your suggestion of applying the Australian model to filling those vacancies is also a good one, but most of the people filling those jobs are tourists on extended holidays, not people looking to build a life in Australia. Working holiday visas require that you must work in service or agriculture, and the will kick you out when your time is up (I'm Australian so I've seen it happen to a number of my friends).

I guess I can't disagree with your personal experiences at University, but I do suspect a lot of it comes down to the institution you attended. I studied at two universities in the UK and found them both academically rigourous.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#82

Post by EliRivers »

biscotte_ wrote: post #6

Immigration was not the main reason of voting Brexit. UKIP is not 51% of the UK electorate. I am surprised to see that, years after that vote, there are still gross misinformation circulating around it.

Indeed. Appears it was the second most common reason, with about one-third of leave voters saying that was their main reason for voting to leave.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-br...

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#83

Post by EliRivers »

vr46 wrote: post #13
biscotte_ wrote: post #6

Immigration was not the main reason of voting Brexit. UKIP is not 51% of the UK electorate. I am surprised to see that, years after that vote, there are still gross misinformation circulating around it.

So what was the main reason?

Apparently, "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK".

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-br...

I genuinely don't know how much I believe people when they say that, though; sometimes people saying that are unable to provide specific decisions that were made outside the UK (so not for any obvious practical reason or lived example), but also are unable to expand on the more philosophical aspects of the principle itself or discuss how far such local desision making should go. I might expect a genuinely held belief to be able to do at least one of those.

In the interests of full disclosure, I do find that when people say that, I do instantly wonder how true that is; I do find myself instantly suspicious, which I am sure then colours my subsequent conclusions.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#84

Post by mytailorisrich »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #31
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

> My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania. The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In i…

I would add that even for immigration procedures and paperwork the UK is actually quite good, straightforward, and helpful compared to some of its neighbours.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#85

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

the-dude wrote: post #39
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #2

The challenge with most startup/entrepreneur visas is that different countries have very different rules and people don't show for these visas and compare them. Most people are forced to go through this because they are required by one way or another to head to a country. That in turn means that there is no desire to make the process any better. Relatedly Brexit is a really odd thing. I feel like absolutely nobody is…

> are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now Are you saying they should? I am from and in NL, and with all furthering EU integration there was the 'promise' from politicians it would be for the better for anyone. People who doubted this, for example truck drivers, were discounted as 'plebs' and not sophisticated enough. Guess what happened when free movement of labor was granted to the Eastern block? C…

I mean you're basically describing why protectionism exists.

Of course cheaper labor will displace more expensive labor, but that is quite literally why these jobs exist. Pay alone is not the reason the UK has a driver shortage, it's also the entire lifestyle that comes with it.

The EU works on the idea that you can work anywhere (with some restrictions) not too different from how this works in different US states. Over a sufficiently long period of time the differences in pay in the EU will move closer. Not entirely, but quite a bit. And that is the long game that will solve these problems more than to restrict labor markets.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#86

Post by adamcharnock »

Luc wrote: post #58
adamcharnock wrote: post #24

Somewhat tangential, but I feel like writing it. I left the UK and moved to Portugal shortly after the Brexit vote. I brought a 6 hectare farm for mid-5-figures (for too big for one person really). The process here was as follows: 1 - Get a 'this person really lives here' document from your local village council office (easy, done in a day) 2 - Get a tax number (easy, but may be worth taking an accountant with you, d…

May I ask if you found your property through a real estate website? I have been on the lookout for a while but I have a feeling I should be visiting the real estate agents in Portugal instead of browsing the web.

I ultimately found my place while being shown around by an estate agent.

I did a lot of browsing on https://www.pureportugal.co.uk, and the place I ended up buying was listed on there, but I'd actually discounted it for some reason.

I know some people here to buy without seeing the property but – generally speaking – I think it is a false economy. This is because:

1 - Places can look much different online. I suspect I discounted my current place because the photos were taken on a cloudy day in the winter

2 - Even in person – and if buying land – it can be really hard to know how the place looks. This is because many places are REALLY overgrown. I had entire terraces which were the depth of a person in brambles. I've known people who have found entire buildings when clearing the undergrowth.

3 - The cost of a trip to Portugal was pretty minimal compared to the cost of buying. Depends on where you are coming from though.

Happy to chat more about this. You can find my contact information on my profile / website.

Also, if you move to this area you can get high speed broadband from the ISP I've just launched: https://gardunha.net

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#87

Post by chii »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #14
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

> I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign In USA? It just depends how rich you are. Does that make things better?

well, at least you can change how rich you are. You cannot change what race you are.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#88

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

cameronh90 wrote: post #80
rich_sasha wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talk to my children in Polish. Almost never before Brexit would random people ask me where I'm from or what language I'm speaking. Now it's all the time, and often with a gentle roll of the eyes afterwards. We don't live in London btw. I'd never go as far as saying it's terrible, but it's markedly different than it was.

Obviously I won't dispute your experience, and I'm sad that you have to go through that. It's never something we've experienced in any part of the UK so far, and we often speak in non-English (well, me not very well - as a typical British person, English is my only fluent language). However, I should add that when I was growing up 20+ years ago (also not in London), this kind of thing was much more common. Indeed, it…

> The long term trend has been greatly softening attitudes towards immigration.

I strongly dispute this. The UK has anything but a softened attitude towards immigration in recent years. It was bad enough that it made me leave because I felt the longer term trend is not going to be good for me and my family and I'm a white European. You might not see it as much if you're not directly affected, but the discourse on the news and social media in the UK has degraded greatly since Brexit and that even happens on some rural public busses now.

I think the UK both wants to think of itself as world open, but a huge part of the population does not like it. Now it's conflicted of what it wants as a country.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#89

Post by the-dude »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #85
the-dude wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now Are you saying they should? I am from and in NL, and with all furthering EU integration there was the 'promise' from politicians it would be for the better for anyone. People who doubted this, for example truck drivers, were discounted as 'plebs' and not sophisticated enough. Guess what happened when free movement of labor was granted to the Eastern block? C…

I mean you're basically describing why protectionism exists. Of course cheaper labor will displace more expensive labor, but that is quite literally why these jobs exist. Pay alone is not the reason the UK has a driver shortage, it's also the entire lifestyle that comes with it. The EU works on the idea that you can work anywhere (with some restrictions) not too different from how this works in different US states. O…

Protectionism vs open markets, nothing needs to be black and white.

You are just re-iterating the tiresome mantra of the EU beneficiaries 'in the end it will all work out for you too'. Except, maybe not in your lifetime.

It is a fundamental neo liberal viewpoint, and I admit in my opinion Labor (parties) have abandonded their constituency since the mid-80s.

And I think that needs to change, and if it takes a bit of protectionism, so what.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#90

Post by ginko »

throwaway210222 wrote: post #73
gpderetta wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People from other EU countries were entitled to live in your (UK) country. Suddenly taking that right away did upend people lives.

True, but article 50 has always been part of the Treaty on European Union (TEU). So EU citizen moving to the UK must have known on the day they decided to migrate that their entitlement to live in the UK was always subject to this caveat. It may suck, but it was never an right that could never be revoked.

Article 50 was only added in 2009.
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