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Extreme Ironing

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Re: Extreme Ironing

#141
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the thing. Children tend to be fine at self-directed learning, e.g. figuring out how to play a new video game. Some—most?—adults chafe at even the idea of engaging in an activity that requires self-directed learning. (To the point that we even have an English word for those adults that don't: "neophiles.")

Some children enjoy playing some new video games. (As do some adults.) Some children (and some adults) would refuse to play a video game that someone else told them to play. Their decisions and feelings are contingent on the context (including social context). If you slow down and have a conversation you can sometimes figure out what the specific emotional problem is, often involving shame or fear, and what triggers…

> Some children (and some adults) would refuse to play a video game that someone else told them to play.

Well, yes, but coercion, extrinsic motivation, and general spite are all edge-cases, and outside the scope of what the core fact about "learning" that I'm trying to talk about here.

Let's look at a specific non-edge-case case: learning under self-directed intrinsically-motivated reward + time pressure — for example, learning to hunt/gather when stranded in the wilderness and hungry.

In situations like this, children do better than adults at deciding to begin experimenting in an attempt to learn how to survive. Adults will try to apply any skills they already have (however rusty), but will have a much harder time than children do in deciding to try to do things they haven't already ever been taught to do. And even when they do make that decision, they will repeatedly revoke it—i.e. give up much more quickly when a solution does not come easily to them. Even though, in education-theoretic terms, all the stars should be aligned in terms of motivating their learning process.

> The problem is seldom if ever “so-and-so is incapable of learning anything new”.

Of course not. That's the observed abstract pattern, not the reason. The reason for adults, AFAICT, is almost always pride/hubris — that is, the idea that they don't need to learn anything new, that there's no advantage in it to outweigh the learning cost, because they've got by just fine up to now without having learned it. (And also because learning is just plain harder for adults, since they have so many existing schemas that need to be broken+reshaped in the process of fully absorbing new ideas that don't fit the existing schema.)

This resistance comes almost always from adults who see themselves as having higher social status than whoever's trying to teach them the thing. They have no mental schema for learning from someone younger or more junior (or of a lower social class/caste) than themselves, since it's not something they've ever experienced earlier in their lives.

Instead, when someone in an inferior social positions knows a thing, and offers to teach it to this social-superior adult, the adult will instead try to manipulate their social inferior into doing the task for them any time they need it to be done — often under the pretext of demonstration for purpose of learning. But with no intention of actually learning, and a complete rejection on being tested for knowledge acquisition (because that would be a violation of the social dynamic!)

Note also that learning is separate from doing. I know many adults that are willing to do novel things (without really understanding what they're doing), and to memorize that specific series of actions by rote — but who have no desire to understand the more general skill behind the rote actions they're taking, such that they could perform related actions in any context other than the exactly memorized thing. In general, memorizing is easy, while learning a new skill is much, much harder. (And yet memorization without learning almost never "sticks", since there's no backing mental schema to encode the memorized steps in terms of.)

Re: Extreme Ironing

#142

Interesting, but something about this article is weird. Overall it doesn't feel like it's in the Wikipedia style and some parts are very editorialized, e.g. > As extreme ironing has branched off, the conditions can gain in extreme activity. For example, a branch of ironing has been developed that includes both bungee jumping and well-pressed clothing. Bungee ironing is what some would call the ultimate in the thrill…

> That citation leads to https://averyj12.weebly.com/extreme-ironing.html, which was clearly copied wholesale from Wikipedia

Welcome to Wikipedia where the line between FUD and knowledge disappears.

Re: Extreme Ironing

#143

Mildly related: I'm curious what are the latest advances in consumer irons and ironing boards. Something that improved them in the last 10-15 years, even incrementally. For example SSDs became much more common and affordable over the past 15 years and their parameters also improved. Are there similar improvements in household appliances like irons? Where would one look for an industry overview?

My favourite advance from the last ten years has been around precision cooking. Sous vide is perhaps the most well known, but you can now get sensors to automatically control a bbq, steam and temperature controlled ovens are becoming more common/affordable (still waiting for a home-use Rational), etc. I love being able to cook with consistent quality and easily repeatable results.

Re: Extreme Ironing

#144

Interesting, but something about this article is weird. Overall it doesn't feel like it's in the Wikipedia style and some parts are very editorialized, e.g. > As extreme ironing has branched off, the conditions can gain in extreme activity. For example, a branch of ironing has been developed that includes both bungee jumping and well-pressed clothing. Bungee ironing is what some would call the ultimate in the thrill…

Citogenesis in the wild? [0]

[0] https://xkcd.com/978/

Re: Extreme Ironing

#145
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some children enjoy playing some new video games. (As do some adults.) Some children (and some adults) would refuse to play a video game that someone else told them to play. Their decisions and feelings are contingent on the context (including social context). If you slow down and have a conversation you can sometimes figure out what the specific emotional problem is, often involving shame or fear, and what triggers…

> Some children (and some adults) would refuse to play a video game that someone else told them to play. Well, yes, but coercion, extrinsic motivation, and general spite are all edge-cases, and outside the scope of what the core fact about "learning" that I'm trying to talk about here. Let's look at a specific non-edge-case case: learning under self-directed intrinsically-motivated reward + time pressure — for exampl…

> give up much more quickly when a solution does not come easily to them

Anecdotally, kids often also give up easily when faced with trivial setbacks. I think your speculative generalization is far too broad. I’d be interested to see some concrete research, but my impression is that there is very wide variability, and I’m not sure how meaningful the statistical averages are.

The people I know who are best at diving into a new never-seen thing and experimenting systematically to figure out quickly and accurately how it works are all adults. They easily run circles around kids at this: the kids get tired, get distracted, get confused and give up, get stuck into an obviously sub-optimal pattern but don’t try to fix it, etc. (The kind of adults who have decades of practice at trying / learning new things. Many relevant metacognitive skills have broad applicability across disciplines.)

One big advantage kids have is that their basic needs are met by someone else, and they generally don’t have lots of other worries and responsibilities. This allows them to focus on something they are interested in far longer and deeper than most people who aren’t doing that thing professionally.

The best for learning (for either an adult or a child) is a combination of personal interest + pleasant no-pressure environment + face-to-face guidance from a trusted expert tutor/coach, who can probe weak points, notice and correct mistakes and misconceptions, suggest methods of practice, ....

> pride/hubris

What you call pride/hubris, I call shame and fear of embarrassment. People really don’t want other people (or themselves) to see them as failures.

> when someone in an inferior social positions knows a thing

This kind of social situation is completely different than the “self-directed intrinsically-motivated reward” situation you were talking about before.

It’s hardly surprising that someone who is supposed to be an expert doesn’t want to be shown up by their subordinate or their junior colleague. It makes them look incompetent and is a direct threat to their social position and livelihood.

Re: Extreme Ironing

#146

Interesting, but something about this article is weird. Overall it doesn't feel like it's in the Wikipedia style and some parts are very editorialized, e.g. > As extreme ironing has branched off, the conditions can gain in extreme activity. For example, a branch of ironing has been developed that includes both bungee jumping and well-pressed clothing. Bungee ironing is what some would call the ultimate in the thrill…

Slightly related question:

Does anyone know what to do when finding a Wikipedia page that's just an ad in disguise?

I've found a few and Wikipedia has a lot of pages about vandalism/verifiability which often recommends just changing the parts that don't fit or placing a warning on the user's page but what if the whole page is about a made up term that exists to link to the authors blog/company?

I can't outright delete a whole page right? I'm also pretty new to contributing Wikipedia and even though they specifically recommend just trying and learning when some action wasn't appropriate I'd still feel more comfortable if I could contact someone with a bit more experience/reputation to discuss such an instance.

Re: Extreme Ironing

#147
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an extension to the soap, there are single squeeze detergent bottles now that precisely meter on a one handed squeeze. So simple, yet phenomenally useful.

I've seen those, but... how does the bottle know how big your washer is? Or how water efficient it is? A agitator "tub washer" uses 40-gallons of water to wash clothes. A modern front-loading HE washer uses 10-gallons. If you use the same amount of soap on both washers, you'll naturally be either... adding too much soap to the HE washer, or too little soap to the agitator washer. ------- Same thing with "Tide Pods".…

They're designed for a particular level of washer - HE in this case - you could probably extend to a larger one.

Re: Extreme Ironing

#148

Mildly related: I'm curious what are the latest advances in consumer irons and ironing boards. Something that improved them in the last 10-15 years, even incrementally. For example SSDs became much more common and affordable over the past 15 years and their parameters also improved. Are there similar improvements in household appliances like irons? Where would one look for an industry overview?

the main advancement is planned obsolescence.

well that, and the electric toothbrush

Re: Extreme Ironing

#149

Interesting, but something about this article is weird. Overall it doesn't feel like it's in the Wikipedia style and some parts are very editorialized, e.g. > As extreme ironing has branched off, the conditions can gain in extreme activity. For example, a branch of ironing has been developed that includes both bungee jumping and well-pressed clothing. Bungee ironing is what some would call the ultimate in the thrill…

Slightly related question: Does anyone know what to do when finding a Wikipedia page that's just an ad in disguise? I've found a few and Wikipedia has a lot of pages about vandalism/verifiability which often recommends just changing the parts that don't fit or placing a warning on the user's page but what if the whole page is about a made up term that exists to link to the authors blog/company? I can't outright delet…

I don't have a ton of experience, but you can add a "may not meet notability guidelines" banner, or a "proposed deletion".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability#Articles_...

Re: Extreme Ironing

#150
post #143

Mildly related: I'm curious what are the latest advances in consumer irons and ironing boards. Something that improved them in the last 10-15 years, even incrementally. For example SSDs became much more common and affordable over the past 15 years and their parameters also improved. Are there similar improvements in household appliances like irons? Where would one look for an industry overview?

My favourite advance from the last ten years has been around precision cooking. Sous vide is perhaps the most well known, but you can now get sensors to automatically control a bbq, steam and temperature controlled ovens are becoming more common/affordable (still waiting for a home-use Rational), etc. I love being able to cook with consistent quality and easily repeatable results.

Yeah, Anova has something that claims to be a temperature controlled (+-0.5F) steam oven at the $600 price point. It's tempting, but I'm not sure I want to give up the counter space.

If anyone here has one, I'm curious how well it works.

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