Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies • Hacker News Board

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#361

Post by darkarmani » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

nickjj wrote: post #283

For everyone who is against this change, can you please write up why? For a ton of small companies (anyone making $10 million or less per year) nothing is going to change and DD is still free to use. If you're at a big organization with let's say 200 developers chances are your company makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Even Docker's most expensive business plan would cost you 200 * $21 = $4,200 month. Pay…

Extortion. They built an entire community of docker users and then this. it's one thing if we all knew they were oracle. It's another thing for them to turn into Oracle after capturing mindshare.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#362

Post by mike_hock » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #130

So many people in this thread don’t understand how enterprise decisions get made. The business license costs $21/month, probably less in reality. Do you really think that businesses are going to jeopardize the workflows of their $250k/year assets over a very core piece of software for $250/year? Any alternative has switching costs and risks. Companies will just pay this. I see so many people saying “just do these 10…

Which is why this shady tactic works time and again.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#363

Post by zenlf » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

On the one hand, I'm sad that I probably have to uninstall docker desktop because I only use it for small side projects, on the other I understand Docker Inc's need to monetize as a for profit company.

I do have a genuine question though. Can a company just change their pricing structure and make it effective immediately(I understand they have a grace period here)? I guess for free tiers they probably can, because the users have never paid them, but what if I'm a paying customer? Could Docker simply say sorry we have changed our pricing from next billing cycle(or tomorrow) you have to pay 100% more. Could they legally do something like that?

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#364

Post by eptcyka » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

Sebb767 wrote: post #308

eptcyka wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

trey-jones, I apologize, but I cannot reply to you directly. The biggest showstopper for podman is that it runs entirely in userspace on Linux. Having said that, I use it as a drop-in replacement for Docker and it's only become better in the past year. This is somewhat irrelevant to the Docker Desktop product, as podman doesn't provide a nice packaged up solution, but you can use podman on Windows and Mac as long as…

> The biggest showstopper for podman is that it runs entirely in userspace on Linux. As I see it, that's the whole selling point. Need to have something with limited rights or build a container without root? Podman is the way to go.

I agree, what's missing is a nice VM appliance for macOS and Windows.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#365

Post by otterley » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

swiftcoder wrote: post #148

qeternity wrote: post #130

So many people in this thread don’t understand how enterprise decisions get made. The business license costs $21/month, probably less in reality. Do you really think that businesses are going to jeopardize the workflows of their $250k/year assets over a very core piece of software for $250/year? Any alternative has switching costs and risks. Companies will just pay this. I see so many people saying “just do these 10…

That sort of depends on the size of business under discussion. If you are a Fortune 500 with 2,000 engineers who all need licenses... half a million in licensing costs is not always the easiest sell. Of course, that fortune 500 is going to pick up the phone and demand to pay 1/4 of that (and they'll probably get it). Enterprise sales is fun

*Actual fun may vary.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#366

Post by katzgrau » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #130

So many people in this thread don’t understand how enterprise decisions get made. The business license costs $21/month, probably less in reality. Do you really think that businesses are going to jeopardize the workflows of their $250k/year assets over a very core piece of software for $250/year? Any alternative has switching costs and risks. Companies will just pay this. I see so many people saying “just do these 10…

That would be the wise thing to do, but I'm sure there are some ways companies will eff it up anyway. Survival of the fittest I guess.

Management may want some badge of honor for saving a budget line item. Or developers may want to embark on a new and interesting project and successfully convince management it's a good idea, who will agree for a wide range of reasons (not pissing off developers might be one of them).

Both will ignore the risk and considerable downsides. Happens all the time.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#367

Post by zmmmmm » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

Interestingly, I think this may be a boon for kubernetes.

We've been managing all our infrastructure with docker / compose, and its been great. But one of the key advantages is unifying the dev & prod environments. Now lately we've been outgrowing the docker solution so k8 is on the radar, but one of the things holding me back is losing the unified prod/dev experience.

So the question has been, take the hit and suck up all the bugs, confusion, duplication etc. that come from having these separate, or move everyone over to k8 and have to deal with the complexity on the developer side?

Well, this decision now definitely tips the scales - there's a distinct advantage to going all in on k8s because we can run it up and down the stack and not be constantly hassled by licensing and software restrictions.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#368

Post by oplav » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

andyroid wrote: post #254

eptcyka wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the value add for Docker Desktop? In a world where podman exists, what's the point of docker on dev machines anyway?

How about the fact that not all, or even most, dev machines run Linux, which is the only platform podman supports?

I don't use podman, but a quick search shows that you can install podman on Linux, Windows, and MacOS. Are you referring to something else?

https://podman.io/getting-started/installation

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#369

Post by InvaderFizz » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

stevebmark wrote: post #293

ArchOversight wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you add up salary + benefits + workplace amenities + taxes + software licenses and whatnot, you get there mighty quick.

I don't know what you mean by taxes, my question is about 250k base, excluding bonuses, stock, and excluding the supposed monetary value of benefits/training/travel/home office whatnot

The statement was that the engineer is a $250k asset to the company.

Rule of thumb TCO for headcount is 1.5-2x salary to account for taxes, Medicare, health insurance, equipment cost, licenses, office square footage, stock options, travel, etc.

So a $250k asset from a business perspective is typically someone that makes $125k-$165k.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#370

Post by zmmmmm » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

nickjj wrote: post #283

For everyone who is against this change, can you please write up why? For a ton of small companies (anyone making $10 million or less per year) nothing is going to change and DD is still free to use. If you're at a big organization with let's say 200 developers chances are your company makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Even Docker's most expensive business plan would cost you 200 * $21 = $4,200 month. Pay…

you jumped from $10m revenue to a 200 developer company with payroll of $3m month in your example.

There are tiny companies with $10m revenue (remember, revenue isn't margin and certainly isn't profit). A company could easily have non-employment expenses be 90% of its revenue, so we are talking about $1m or 7-8 person company there on decent salaries. A far cry from the 200 devs you give as an example.

However as to "why" - because docker's precise value proposition is its ubiquity and universality. The exact reason people have adopted it is because everyone can run it, no matter who, no matter where. So this compromises the main value proposition of Docker. People will now find alternatives because if I can't distribute my application using docker and know the person at the other end can run it (because now they need a license that they don't have) then it lost virtually its whole point to me.