Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels • Hacker News Board

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#121

Post by nate_meurer » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #117

nate_meurer wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many pieces of well-used nonstick cookware well over a decade old, which are in pretty much the same condition as when I bought them. This includes cheap IKEA pans that my kids used. Some of them get used literally every day. We don't overheat them, and don't use metal utensils in them, and there's no reason they can't last forever. Regardless, you can eat the entire coating off of your pan, and there will be…

Hmm, sounds like you've got lucky with your pans - everyone I've ever mentioned this too has had the same problem with non-stick pans! Lifetime of 6-12 months tops :/ I never did use metal utensils with them; it might be I overheated some, but certainly not all, and a pan isn't much use if you can't get it hot!

I don't think I'm lucky, but there is definitely a cost. The cost is that I'm a fucking asshole about my nonstick pots and pans. I keep my stash separate from the rest of the family, I get grumpy if I catch anyone using it, and god forbid anyone scratches my shit.

I buy separate stuff for my kids, and my wife has her own favorite pan.

Of course there's no need to be an asshole like me. But I think it's eminently doable for everyone. I do believe keeping the temperature down is key to longevity, especially for cheaper cookware with simpler two-layer nonstick coating systems. I have a lot of these too, and I just avoid going over 300 deg F or so. No problems so far.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#122

Post by nate_meurer » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

doctorsher wrote: post #115

verall wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that you are correct in most cases, people choose nonstick for the easy cleanup afterwards. But that's not what I'm referring to. I have not found a pan, other than PTFE coated, which can fry rice to crispy without using excessive tons of oil. All of the best crispy rice will get stuck to the pan and become inedible.

When you tried the carbon steel pan, was it properly seasoned? They stick like hell before they are well seasoned, but seasoning them gives the carbon steel its non-stick properties. Woks are the ultimate tool for this, as they are carbon steel (so non-stick when seasoned) and their shape minimizes the amount of oil necessary to fry the rice. It is ubiquitous for fried rice across almost all of Asia.

Yeah but they use a lot of oil in those woks, and they get them really hot. Any Chinese street vendor with an open fire and cheap steel wok can do shit I can't dream of doing in my fancy ass American kitchen.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#123

Post by loudtieblahblah » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #59

q_andrew wrote: post #4

This contributes to the theory that PFAS is affecting ambient obesity rates in the modern world: https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/26/a-chemical-hunger-p...

As someone who immigrated from France to the US, it’s pretty obvious why people in the US are obese: people don’t know / don’t have the time to know how to eat properly and eat junk food, all the time, at any hour, and don’t move around. It’s pretty obvious when you realize that there is a lot less overweight people in upper middle class areas.

even among people who say what you're saying - there's just so many things that raise insulin levels or contribute to insulin-resistance.

people assume it's sugar. and a lot of it is and it's the first thing people should cut back on.

but people are surprised zero-calorie artificial sweeteners and crystalized versions of stevia and monk fruit do.

people aren't even aware that omega6s PUFAs (which we're supposed to have a 1:1 ratio with omega3s, and are supposed to have both in fairly low levels) also impact insulin resistance

activity does, sleep does, things impact it positively like a wide range of plant foods or teas.

but more simply - without going into the whys or the science, if generally speaking people cut out A. Sugar and B. processed foods (thus removing a ton of salt and omega6s) people would be a million times better off.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#124

Post by jszymborski » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

sampo wrote: post #120

jszymborski wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, banning GMO's outright would be a huge problem, but is it so awful that they be tested first? I don't know if they test for this, but GMOs do run the risk of become invasive or destructive species which could potentially tilt things towards the "devastating famine" side of the equation. I don't think the ecological concern is what most people worry about when they think GMOs, and I'm not of the mind that GMOs =…

> GMOs do run the risk of become invasive or destructive species Crop plants don't run the risk to become invasive or destructive species. They are bred to be easily digestible food sources, which the exact opposite of the strategy for surviving in the wild.

That's true and a relief, but they're also bred to be resistant to certain insecticides and to be robust.

I guess my point is that we don't always get what we think we're getting when it comes to GMOs/selection: when farmers selected for Red Delicious apples that were entirely red, they also selected out the gene that made them palatable. Surely they wouldn't have done what they had if they knew we'd be left with the mealy mess Red Delicious apples are today.

We hope we'll get edible plants that also don't do well in the wild, but there's a lot of room for error and testing is warranted in my not-an-expert opinion (I've a degree in Biochemistry, not Ecology or Agriculture).

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/the-evil-...

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#125

Post by loudtieblahblah » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #25

chamsom wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your clothing is waterproof or has some kind of exercise "moisture wicking" material, it is common to have PFAS.

I tried to buy new Hanes or Fruit of the Loom undershirts and literally couldn’t find any that didn’t have their proprietary coating.

sigh. that's all the undershirts i have.

i'm "sure" (/s) that the chinese competitors on amazon are sooo much better.

I'm so tired of having to anaylze every fucking product i bring into my home and expose myself, my wife and my kid to.

I'm tired of being "that guy" to my wife too.

It's endlessly frustrating

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#126

Post by loudtieblahblah » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #38

nate_meurer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no mobile PFAS chemicals in nonstick cookware. Nonstick coatings are made from PTFE, which is a completely inert polymer that cannot be broken down into mobile components unless it's overheated. The fluorinated chemicals used in the manufacture of the coatings (largely surfactants) are completely removed when the coating is baked on, and they have to be or else the coating would fail. PTFE is used in medica…

People "overheat" their cookware all the time. Do you know anyone who measures the temp of the surface of their cookware? Teflon and nonstick coatings kill birds (house pets) when overheated. A nonstick pan in the oven to catch the drippings from your chicken baking at 400 or 425 can kill your parrot quickly. A nonstick wok left unattended for a few minutes during a high-heat stir fry easily reaches 400, enough to ki…

i'd have to buy a new stove if i had a cast iron pan

i have a glass top stove.

cast iron has several problems. Learning how to "season" it (which i never figured out how to do when i had a different oven), the fact it's usually expensive and there's no "one size fits all scenarios" type of pan to use and re-use, thus resulting in you have to buy several.

Then there's stainless steel pans but good luck with that - everything sticks to that.

I just want to cook some eggs without having to use some chemical solvent to actually clean the egg remnants off the pan.

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#127

Post by tharkun__ » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #34

chamsom wrote: post #16

California law TB117 required fire retardant foam until 2015 so a lot of couches have PFAS. This is an example of creating a problem by trying to avoiding another. Of course, this is not to single out CA as this is a global problem. Could be wrong but it seems like the general rule is that manufacturers are allowed to "experiment in public" when it comes to chemical science. PFAS alternatives are already in the wild…

I don't want flame retardants in my products. I suspect most of these requirements came from the era when a lot more people smoked. Sure, put flame retardants in oven mitts and things that will reasonably catch fire, rather than things like pillowcases. Even still, how common were couch fires 20+ years ago when flame based (non-vaping) smoking was so much more common?

Like my sibling sort of did I want to point out that this possibly was meant to counter another trend. Unfortunately furniture nowadays burn much faster than before.

They did an experiment. Built one room with old furniture made from solid wood and other "old style materials" and set it on fire. Then they built another one with modern materials with the typical particle board furniture. Set it on fire.

Not many more words needed. Just watch: https://youtu.be/aDNPhq5ggoE

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#128

Post by doctorsher » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

nate_meurer wrote: post #122

doctorsher wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you tried the carbon steel pan, was it properly seasoned? They stick like hell before they are well seasoned, but seasoning them gives the carbon steel its non-stick properties. Woks are the ultimate tool for this, as they are carbon steel (so non-stick when seasoned) and their shape minimizes the amount of oil necessary to fry the rice. It is ubiquitous for fried rice across almost all of Asia.

Yeah but they use a lot of oil in those woks, and they get them really hot. Any Chinese street vendor with an open fire and cheap steel wok can do shit I can't dream of doing in my fancy ass American kitchen.

J Kenji Lopez-Alt has a lot of great wok content for American kitchens. In [0], he uses a butane torch to get the smoky wok flavor (wok hei) in a standard kitchen. He also reviews outdoor wok setups for those who want something close to Chinese street vendor-type vibe.

[0] https://youtu.be/iac_idcz6XE

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#129

Post by riversflow » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 12:24 AM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #92

danudey wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, California's law that makes everyone label everything with "this product contains some measurable level of an identified carcinogen" means that no one pays attention to those labels when it's plastered on something like an asbestos breathing mask or lick-and-paint radon clocks, making them even worse than useless.

Or the alternative: there are a huge amount of dangerous products in the market that we all shouldn’t be using. Thank you California for bringing this to our consciousness. Personally I’m very content with these labels and actually avoid products that contain the warning. It’s only because of prop 65 that I recently learned many seaweeds contain high levels of arsenic, lead, and other heavy metals.

Bruce Ames, biochemist and molecular biologist, inventor of the Ames Test and a prolific and accomplished scientist in the areas of cancer and aging[1], believes that prop 65 is a, "thoroughly silly law, with an enormous cost and no gain in public health"[2]. Interesting and relevant discussion in this PDF[3] about the fire retardants discussed elsewhere in this thread.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Ames

[2] PDF warning https://digitalcommons.law.ggu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

[3] PDF warning https://www.prop65clearinghouse.com/documents/19184

Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels

#130

Post by bcrl » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

doitLP wrote: post #40

The problem is not PFAS. It is extreme regulatory capture that got us to the this point. Even if we ban PFAS tomorrow, there are other alternatives that will be used and another 2 decades of lies and cover ups before we find out what harm those chemicals have. Example: look at what happened when BPAs harms became known. Manufacturers switched to using any of the other 40 chemicals in the same bisphenol family (BPS, e…

It's not entirely regulatory capture. Progress in science requires the ability to understand and accept that new information can arrive that invalidates prior decisions. In the political sphere, this is known as a "flip-flop" and is sadly considered to be a poor trait by a good chunk of the public. So long as governments represent the public, and a cross section of the general public thinks that flip-flopping is a bad thing, I don't think it's possible to have decisions driven by the best available science.

Side note: even scientists get things wrong. Businesses thrive on certainty, so some level of damping of changes in regulatory direction is required. Finding the right balance is, however, not something humans have done as well as we need to just yet.