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Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

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Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#161

Post by oneplane »

bhhaskin wrote: post #124
ruined wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This proposal does not aim to define a mechanism that allows the creation of a 3D scene within a browser using declarative primitives or a programmatic API. the goal isn't to fully render scenes, it's simply to gain the ability to include a 3d resource in the page semantically. heavier solutions to render scenes already exist.

Seems already possible using a custom web component.

You can also just render a complete OS in a canvas using wasm. Heck, why use the browser at all, just let them download a custom binary...

You see where this is going right?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#162

Post by thih9 »

gambler wrote: post #137
thih9 wrote: post #134

> while we are not proposing a DOM for the data at the moment, we expect to in the future. On one hand this is exciting. On the other, I'm having trouble seeing practical applications. Can anyone point to some websites showing DOM use in existing media elements (e.g. SVG)?

DOM for SVG allows applying the same code that manipulates HTML to SVG with very little changes. You can splice it in with AJAX, change it via styles, etc. It facilitates writing generic scripts that can be reapplied to widely different use cases. The idea of having a generic interface to widely different types of entities is a very powerful concept and it is very unfortunate that so many web developers today don't s…

I understand that it is a powerful concept; I'm looking for existing websites that make use of it; is anyone aware of any?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#163

Post by theunspoken »

I am very fed up with standards lacking a free and open reference implementation. It's very easy to produce a specification for embedding 3D models into a browser, but who is going to follow up with and actual complying browser?

The big guys, that's who.

Google, Microsoft, Apple can just throw piles and piles of money at the problem; but what about everyone else? What about Firefox? What about Palemoon? What about Falkon?

When the AV1 codec came about one of the first thing provided was the reference implementation (AOMenc), same with Wayland. Not the most performant, not the lightest on resources, but at least it followed the protocol.

W3C and alike though don't seem to like this perspective. Why can't we have an average performing BSD-licensed W3C-compliant web browser? Just as a last resort if you just want to use something that is sure to work, or maybe the first browser you can port to a new architecture or OS to get things going.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#164

Post by jchw »

robertoandred wrote: post #136
jchw wrote: post #60

I’m annoyed at the realization that Safari will likely support this before it supports WebM or Ogg.

Just because Google pushes their pet format doesn't mean the industry needs to be their lapdogs.

Please explain to me how Ogg Vorbis and Ogg Opus are still not supported, then. Please tell me why Apple has no answer for a patent-unencumbered format that replaces it. Better yet, please explain why Google’s “pet formats” are evil, bad, or even just not good. I’m tired of hearing this argument. So basically Google made WebM, so we can never have open formats in browsers? How is this really the answer that’s better for the web ecosystem?

Not supporting WebP had some merit, considering there were other answers, but WebM basically doesn’t have any better alternatives. Even iPhones have the necessary hardware to decode VP8 and VP9. Why does Firefox support WebM if it’s so bad for the web? Why is Apple even part of the AV1 alliance without releasing software that supports it?

I don’t like Apple getting a free pass on positive intent because it’s not Google. Whether its codecs (which Apple holds both MPEG-4 and HEVC patents,) or WebGPU shaders (nobody else wanted WSL, but Apple forced it on us, apparently because of SPIR-V IP conflicts,) people seemingly make up excuses for why it’s OK that they lag on standards that nobody else seems to have an issue with. It’s beyond frustrating. It’s infuriating. As a web developer, it’s a bigger problem to me than anything Google Chrome does, and trust me, that’s saying a lot.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#165

Post by smoldesu »

AlexAltea wrote: post #126

Dismissing Apple's HTML element proposal because WebGL/WebGPU on already "solve" the problem feels short-sighted... Under that logic, shouldn't we replace and elements with WASM modules for ffmpeg/libjpeg/libpng rendering into a too? Or hey, maybe we could drop HTML altogether and just render all content from WebAssembly straight into the ?

> Under that logic, shouldn't we replace and elements with WASM modules for ffmpeg/libjpeg/libpng rendering into a too?

If we're going to town, we may as well go in a Lincoln. Maybe I've just been working in Rust too much recently, but this was my exact thought too upon reading this.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#166

Post by TimTheTinker »

jeroenhd wrote: post #100
stefan_ wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems history teaches us the exact opposite. Nobody uses the native input elements because they can't be sufficiently styled and customized but simultaneously have significant behavior differences between browsers. They also of course languished for the longest time, at points looking out of place with the browser chrome itself.

As a user, I curse every time a website decides that my theme is incompatible with my computer's theme and that my scroll bar should in fact be bright red and 1 pixel wide just like on the designer's Macbook, and that buttons should look exactly like tabs, links, checkboxes and radio boxes because that's what the brand designer wanted. Native component's can't be styled because of very good reasons and unless you're…

What you're describing is a failure of particular designers and developers to build an acceptable user experience. But that doesn't mean that good front-end designers and developers don't exist, or that good UI/UX doesn't exist outside of native browser controls.

I'm a front-end developer, and I currently work with one of the best UI designers in the industry (she's really, incredibly good). We consistently get very positive feedback on our work - currently rebuilding the front-end UI for a unicorn SaaS startup.

Good UI controls take a lot of work on small details even beyond the design mocks - event handling, styling, keyboard navigability, layout behavior, configurable options... but when it all comes together it feels great to use.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#167

Post by zamalek »

bastawhiz wrote: post #155
zamalek wrote: post #132

There's an existing standard that they could have collaborated on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X3D > Striving to become the 3D standard for the Web, X3D is designed to be as integrated into HTML5 pages as other XML standards such as MathML and SVG. X3DOM is a proposed syntax model and its implementation as a script library that demonstrates how this integration can be achieved without a browser plugin, using only W…

Apple isn't doing anything that's incompatible with X3D. In fact, they didn't even specify which kinds of models they would accept (there's a `type` on the elements). You could easily point one of those at an X3D file. Sure, you could put an tag into a HTML document, but there's no ` ` equivalent (like you can use with SVG) to load that content from another URI. When dealing with extremely large (byte-wise) or comple…

Re-iterating the quote from my comment:

> X3D is designed to be as integrated into HTML5 pages as other XML standards such as MathML and SVG. X3DOM[...]

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#168

Post by dragonwriter »

bastawhiz wrote: post #155
zamalek wrote: post #132

There's an existing standard that they could have collaborated on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X3D > Striving to become the 3D standard for the Web, X3D is designed to be as integrated into HTML5 pages as other XML standards such as MathML and SVG. X3DOM is a proposed syntax model and its implementation as a script library that demonstrates how this integration can be achieved without a browser plugin, using only W…

Apple isn't doing anything that's incompatible with X3D. In fact, they didn't even specify which kinds of models they would accept (there's a `type` on the elements). You could easily point one of those at an X3D file. Sure, you could put an tag into a HTML document, but there's no ` ` equivalent (like you can use with SVG) to load that content from another URI. When dealing with extremely large (byte-wise) or comple…

> Sure, you could put an tag into a HTML document, but there's no `` equivalent (like you can use with SVG) to load that content from another URI.

Yes, there is, the HTML tag.

https://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/HtmlObjectTagForX3d.html

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