Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm having trouble figuring out what kind of filter I can use for my furnace. I've read a little bit about it and it seems that a residential furnace might not be able to handle the HEPA filter due to the higher airflow resistance. Even MERV 13 might already be too high.
The MERV or other rating of a filter is not what's important to your furnace (it's what's important to the humans) but what matters is how much airflow through the filter can be achieved by the furnace fan and how much pressure drop the filter induces. If you get a MERV 12 filter with LOTS of filter material, it may flow more air at a lower pressure drop than a MERV 6 filter with minimal filter material. Look for mor…
Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
91–100 of 151 posts
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#92California law TB117 required fire retardant foam until 2015 so a lot of couches have PFAS. This is an example of creating a problem by trying to avoiding another. Of course, this is not to single out CA as this is a global problem. Could be wrong but it seems like the general rule is that manufacturers are allowed to "experiment in public" when it comes to chemical science. PFAS alternatives are already in the wild…
Also, California's law that makes everyone label everything with "this product contains some measurable level of an identified carcinogen" means that no one pays attention to those labels when it's plastered on something like an asbestos breathing mask or lick-and-paint radon clocks, making them even worse than useless.
Personally I’m very content with these labels and actually avoid products that contain the warning. It’s only because of prop 65 that I recently learned many seaweeds contain high levels of arsenic, lead, and other heavy metals.
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#93I recently retrofit a new HVAC system and as a result have also gone on a bit of a deep dive on indoor air quality. The big thing I learned is that most homes -- even old "leaky" builds -- have rather poor ventilation, meaning all sorts of compounds build up in the air... CO2, formaldehyde, VOCs, PFAS, etc. Air purifiers work for particulate, but don't really make a dent for chemicals. IIRC, You would need like a 50…
Energy Recovery Ventilators or Heat Recovery Ventilators are absolutely essential (and, I think, part of code in many places!) in this era of tight and sometimes extraordinarily tight (e.g. Passivhaus) home building. When we bought our home, the HRV wasn't working and once I replaced a bunch of parts in it, the difference in the quality of the air was noticeable just in the fact that it smelled fresh like the outdoor…
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Breakdown begins to occur at either 200 or 260 degrees Celsius (depending on what data you're looking at). This isn't good data. The stories of PTFE coatings breaking down at less than 260 deg C are anecdotal. The most well known one comes from someone who swears their chickens were killed by coated light bulbs in a coop. The lowest temperature that has lead to bird deaths in a controlled laboratory setting is 280…
> The lowest temperature that has lead to bird deaths in a controlled laboratory setting is 280 deg C "Did any birds die?" is an approach to this problem that I would expect from an undeveloped nation a hundred years ago. It is both excruciatingly short-term in focus and so imprecise that the results are useless for anyone who is not himself a rat or a canary. Your data answers the question, "To what temperature must…
I sort of agree, but birds do make a convenient study subject because they are exquisitely sensitive, much more so than humans.
The lowest temperature at which PTFE coatings have been seen to evolve breakdown products (that I know of) is 240 deg C. Even then, the only detected product was micro-size PTFE sublimate, which can lead to what we call "fume fever", but reports of this actually happening are rare, even in factory workers who are exposed at much higher levels.
The temperatures at which PTFE pyrolysis really starts to give off nasty shit are way higher [1], but even then, evidence of physiological harm is sketchy. Anecdotally, I know a few people, including my father, who have left a nonstick pan on the stove, got distracted, and burned the coating right the fuck off. Aside from the smell, no ill effects were observed. This isn't scientific at all, but if burning PTFE is that toxic, one might have expected some effects.
> It does not answer the question, "What are the long-term effects on humans of short excursions outside of normal cooking temperatures?"
This is true, but undertaking such a study would be both impossible and pointless, because we are exposed to millions or billions of times more fluorinated compounds from clothing, furniture, and carepeting, than we could evey hope to get from nonstick cookware, even if you overheat it regularly.
Keep in mind that billions of pieces of nonstick cookware have been in use every day around the world for the past seventy years. And all time, factory workers have been exposed to the manufacturing process. That's plenty of time for problems to have been observed on some level, but they just haven't. The problems we're seeing come from the billion-fold higher levels of PFC we get from other sources.
To repeat an analogy from an earlier comment, worrying about nonstick cookware is sort of like a lifeguard who works in the sun all day, but obsessively blacks out the windows in his home because he's worried about UV radiation getting in his house. It makes no sense.
1 - https://sci-hub.st/10.1289/ehp.7511197 - Waritz, R. S. (1975). An industrial approach to evaluation of pyrolysis and combustion hazards. Environmental Health Perspectives
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wicking materials don't use PFAS (although see edit below). The properties that PFAS endows a fabric are pretty much of the opposite of what you need for wicking. Wicking fabrics such as Capilene and polypropylene must be wettable in order to work. PFAS reduces the wettability of fibers. That's its whole point. PFAS is used in nearly all current water resistant fabrics, including clothing, upholstery, and carpet. The…
I’ve put off buying a sleeping bag from REI because of DWR. I like to sleep outside as much as I can, and when temps are freezing a well-insulated bag is great. I’ve switched to wool blankets for now. I’m also more and more okay with going without various comforts; the cost of having whatever I want is too high.
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The lowest temperature that has lead to bird deaths in a controlled laboratory setting is 280 deg C "Did any birds die?" is an approach to this problem that I would expect from an undeveloped nation a hundred years ago. It is both excruciatingly short-term in focus and so imprecise that the results are useless for anyone who is not himself a rat or a canary. Your data answers the question, "To what temperature must…
> "Did any birds die?" is an approach to this problem that I would expect from an undeveloped nation a hundred years ago. It is both excruciatingly short-term in focus and so imprecise that the results are useless for anyone who is not himself a rat or a canary. I sort of agree, but birds do make a convenient study subject because they are exquisitely sensitive, much more so than humans. The lowest temperature at whi…
He told me that it was pointless because I would be exposed to more background radiation throughout the course of my normal life. He did not understand that ionizing radiation damage is cumulative and that there is no safe limit for exposure. Annoyed with my request, he gave me the vest anyway.
Is there a safe limit for exposure to PFAs? I would readily concede that the risk to an individual is probably negligible, but like in the case of x-rays, population-level risks probably do exist for even the smallest exposure.
That said, I would also support eliminating all sources of PFAs, just like we tried to do with CFCs and asbestos.
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#97I'm designing a wearable device, and I'm looking for resistant materials, different from metals, that are safe to use on the skin. According to Wikipedia PTFE (teflon) is not harmful. Could someone recommend materials to protect the electronics from sweat/dirt and the skin from the device silicone?
Silicone is a PFAS alternative and a little safer, but also not wonderful if it gets inside of you [2].
All of which is to say that your device should be OK as long as no one puts it inside them. AFAIK anyway.
[1]: https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/teflon-and-perfl...
[2]: https://www.healthline.com/health/body-modification/is-silic...
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because rice will still stick to the cast iron and enamel pans? People don't just choose PTFE because they are lazy. I tried a carbon steel, cast iron, and "oiled enamel" and rice stuck to all of them.
I might go with “because they are lazy” for many of the shortcuts we take. We have one well-seasoned cast-iron pan and several not-so-well-seasoned which I’ve been too lazy to properly treat, so for now I spend the extra time scrubbing. I even use soap (!), though only after the dog gets the big stuff off. Teflon pans required too much care, so we never repaced them. I agree that rice sticks easily to iron pans, so I…
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
People "overheat" their cookware all the time. Do you know anyone who measures the temp of the surface of their cookware? Teflon and nonstick coatings kill birds (house pets) when overheated. A nonstick pan in the oven to catch the drippings from your chicken baking at 400 or 425 can kill your parrot quickly. A nonstick wok left unattended for a few minutes during a high-heat stir fry easily reaches 400, enough to ki…
> Do you know anyone who measures the temp of the surface of their cookware? Yes, I do. I have a cheap IR thermometer with my kitchen utensils, and I use it all the time. I use it every time I roast seeds and spices, because I'm picky that way. I've also used it when I've accidentally left a pan on the burner too long. I'm careful but I screw up now and then. I accidentally heated a stainless pan to nearly 500 deg F…
Re: Toxic ‘forever chemicals’ contaminate indoor air at worrying levels
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hold on, that is very much the opposite of my interpretation. HEPA filters are typically designed with 0.3μm pores this is mostly a legacy of medical applications (i.e. to guarantee they catch bacteria). Submicron performance ( The PFAS is a group of substances, the article is specifically talking about 6:2 FTOH (one of many PFAS substances) that is found in carpets etc. 6:2 FTOH specifically is a sub-micron compound…
> You need the submicron particle to travel on a larger liquid particule for it to adhere to the filter lattice That's what intuition would suggest, but intuition turns out to be wrong when dealing with filters for microscopic things. There are at least four mechanisms by which a filter can trap particles, three of which work on particles smaller than the pores [1]. Briefly: 1. Big particles don't fit between the fib…