Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#11

Post by andrew_ » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

larksimian wrote: post #5

Claudus wrote: post #2

My perception of the mindset of the typical liberal in the past was that it was more about making change for the benefit of everyone in the country (don’t worry conservatives , this will work out for the best). Now it is more about making change that benefits some at the expense of others (screw you conservatives). In order to push political agendas like this, political opposition needs to be more negatively portraye…

'Liberal' and 'conservative' are just labels that no longer describe the same ideologies as in the past. 19th C liberals were sort of like modern day libertarians, but in the context of the European monarchies at the time which were explicitly oppressive. 20th century progressives with their universal social programs were social democrats. Modern day liberals are split between 'centrist' neo-liberals and more hardcor…

It's curious that you see a spectrum in the left, but not in the right. That might suggest bias, but I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt. There is no universal conservative position, nor are all conservatives reactionary. Just as those far to the left have strayed from classical liberalism, those far to the right have strayed from classical conservatism. With the rampant labeling and tribalism so popular these days, many of us just don't know what political camp we fit into anymore.

Update: If you're downvoting, please do share why, or share a critique or rebuttal. I'd genuinely like to read some opposing opinions. I had thought that was a fair reply to the parent as the political spectrum in U.S. politics has been rather well-documented as diverse both to the left and to the right.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#12

Post by neverywhere » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 12:50 PM UTC

knubie wrote: post #9

neverywhere wrote: post #7

Conservatives currently out reproduce liberals for whatever reason, for example: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advant... I wonder if it is purely cultural or is there a genetic component? If there is low fertility because of a genetic component, that is likely going to targeted hard by evolution now. (Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because tha…

Conservative parents don't necessarily produce conservative children.

But papers do indicate that there is a genetic component to political ideology: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038932/pdf/nih...

Your argument is akin to a global warming denier saying that yeah, but some days are still cold. Yes, there will always be variation.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#13

Post by peterburkimsher » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 12:51 PM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #4

This was me circa 2012-2013. I hadn't realized it yet, but was quite liberal minded compared to my fellow church mates. I tried talking to someone who is rather politically conservative (she eventually ran for office). In our conversations, I just kept finding myself thinking... that's not how I view that... at all. Nothing became of the relationship, but doubt it would have maintained anyway. For me, it was the firs…

It's good to have a variety of friends from different perspectives, so that the peer pressure can balance a little. I agree that for relationship commitments, it's often a more enjoyable to find someone with compatible views rather than just what one community expects from you. In my case, I decided it would be a good learning experience to date a non-Christian whose world view and travel experience is more suitable for mine. I thought it would be a good learning experience, and it is! I didn't expect we'd still be together 4.5 years later, but I'd rather stay long-distance with her than be with anyone else, or single again. Every day my mind wonders why we're still together, and every night we chat online and my heart falls madly in love with her all over again.

Side note for church, specifically: my favourite church is where the sermon is convicting and the people are encouraging. My least favourite church is where the sermon is encouraging and the people are convicting.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#14

Post by everdrive » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 12:55 PM UTC

neverywhere wrote: post #7

Conservatives currently out reproduce liberals for whatever reason, for example: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advant... I wonder if it is purely cultural or is there a genetic component? If there is low fertility because of a genetic component, that is likely going to targeted hard by evolution now. (Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because tha…

>(Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because that is one of the biggest predictors of reduced fertility.)

Generally speaking evolution does not work on these time scales. Importantly, there is nothing that would make someone "genetically liberal" or "genetically conservative." You might be able to point to higher order traits which may indicate someone being conservative vs. liberal. ie, openness to experience, religiosity, etc. But, it's not clear that these traits are static throughout a lifetime. (eg, "openness to experience" is generally much higher in the young than the old.) Furthermore, the idea of what it means to be "liberal" or "conservative" changes over time as well. Someone describing themselves as "liberal" in 1950 wouldn't bear much resemblance to someone describing themselves as liberal in 2021. According to historians, the conservative movement as we understand it really only began in the 1950s, and prior to that people would not have described themselves as either "liberal or conservative." (and in fact, "liberal" was not previously synonymous with "left," and therefore many people on the "right" would have previously described themselves as liberal.

The point is that political movements have short life spans. Perhaps in the tens or hundreds of years, which is not nearly enough for evolution to make any meaningful impact.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#15

Post by neverywhere » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #14

neverywhere wrote: post #7

Conservatives currently out reproduce liberals for whatever reason, for example: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advant... I wonder if it is purely cultural or is there a genetic component? If there is low fertility because of a genetic component, that is likely going to targeted hard by evolution now. (Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because tha…

>(Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because that is one of the biggest predictors of reduced fertility.) Generally speaking evolution does not work on these time scales. Importantly, there is nothing that would make someone "genetically liberal" or "genetically conservative." You might be able to point to higher order traits which may indicate someone being conservative…

Religions have a longer time span and correlate with conservatives. Many religions actually shed their members who have liberal views. Thus religions tend to conserve conservatives leaning individuals.

So if religion was not part of the conservative-liberal divide I would buy your argument but it is part of it and it is long running.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#16

Post by snarf21 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

adrianb wrote: post #6

mothsonasloth wrote: post #3

My 2 pennies: Living in a secular society where religion plays a reduced part on the individual, compared with 50 years ago. People now fill the gaps with other banners to fly and differentiate themselves with.

I agree, religion offers simple ways to classify actions as good or bad. Following the church teachings or priest's guidance was enough to make an individual confident they are a good person, doing good things. Meanwhile, in real life, everything is complex, few things are clearly good or bad, everything has advantages and disadvantages. People need a simple compass to distinguish good and bad. It seems the "politica…

That is the narrative of the religious but most don't go to learn about what they are doing wrong. They go to find out what other people are doing wrong so they can feel superior and rail against the sin of others. Religion has always been a weapon, it is just easier to wield now.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#17

Post by woodruffw » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #3

My 2 pennies: Living in a secular society where religion plays a reduced part on the individual, compared with 50 years ago. People now fill the gaps with other banners to fly and differentiate themselves with.

Without taking on the challenge of falsifying your claim (I think it’d be pretty hard), I see things a little differently.

A key moment in the development of the current conservative mindset was Goldwater’s 1964 campaign, nearly 60 years ago by now. Goldwater (and every Republican who succeeded him) has used the same rhetorical lynchpins: the media cannot be trusted, it’s the coastal elites against the heartland, &c. An entire generation of conservatives grew up with Goldwater conservativism as their frame of reference, and cheered when the FCC’s Fairness Doctrine was undone. The last 30 or so years of American conservative politics are on a relatively straight track from there: radio politics, the Contract With America, an increasing dependency on evangelical voters and a corresponding shift towards their social issues, &c.

But note: this started when religion was a much larger part of American life. So, at least to my mind, America’s (relatively modest) secular shift is not the primary mover here.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#18

Post by AmericanChopper » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 1:06 PM UTC

andrew_ wrote: post #11

larksimian wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Liberal' and 'conservative' are just labels that no longer describe the same ideologies as in the past. 19th C liberals were sort of like modern day libertarians, but in the context of the European monarchies at the time which were explicitly oppressive. 20th century progressives with their universal social programs were social democrats. Modern day liberals are split between 'centrist' neo-liberals and more hardcor…

It's curious that you see a spectrum in the left, but not in the right. That might suggest bias, but I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt. There is no universal conservative position, nor are all conservatives reactionary. Just as those far to the left have strayed from classical liberalism, those far to the right have strayed from classical conservatism. With the rampant labeling and tribalism so popular these…

I’m always a bit entertained by people who claim they want to express a non-biased view of partisan dynamics, and then proceed to express something that is a perfect representation of the fundamental attribution error.

Personally I think the primary contention that exists between the dogma of the left and the right is just the contention between collectivism and individualism. But outliers aside, I don’t think you end up with substantially different policies from one side or the other, regardless of the contrast in the dogma. I don’t think members of either tribe are substantially different in their dogmatism, reactionism… or in their proclivity to deeply reflect on the views they hold. For any person who finds themselves substantially aligned with a mainstream political ideology, I think the chance that they’ve put a substantial amount of critical thought into their world view is very close to 0.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#19

Post by qsort » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

snarf21 wrote: post #16

adrianb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, religion offers simple ways to classify actions as good or bad. Following the church teachings or priest's guidance was enough to make an individual confident they are a good person, doing good things. Meanwhile, in real life, everything is complex, few things are clearly good or bad, everything has advantages and disadvantages. People need a simple compass to distinguish good and bad. It seems the "politica…

That is the narrative of the religious but most don't go to learn about what they are doing wrong. They go to find out what other people are doing wrong so they can feel superior and rail against the sin of others. Religion has always been a weapon, it is just easier to wield now.

I'm not religious myself, but it is true that if you're going to treat something other than religion as though it were a religion, it's almost always going to be much worse.

Most religious prescriptions are either common sense (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not bear false witness) or recipes to avoid social chaos (thou shalt not commit adultery).

Of course religion has also been wielded as a weapon, and I'm the first in line to cherish western secularization, but I don't see it as an inherently socially harmful force.

Re: Partisan attachment: How politics is changing dating and relationships (2020)

#20

Post by woodruffw » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

neverywhere wrote: post #7

Conservatives currently out reproduce liberals for whatever reason, for example: https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-conservative-fertility-advant... I wonder if it is purely cultural or is there a genetic component? If there is low fertility because of a genetic component, that is likely going to targeted hard by evolution now. (Will evolution select against women getting higher education like Masters or PhD? Because tha…

We cannot afford a mine shaft gap!

But more seriously: the furthest left people I know are the ones who grew up around conservatives, particularly in privation (usually one of the strongest signals for high birth rates). These things have a tendency to balance each other by nurture; assuming that people are genetically predestined to be conservative (or liberal) is both silly and incompatible with our observed history as communal animals.