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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#541

Post by cratermoon »

timr wrote: post #366
cratermoon wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sign that the interview questions aren't there to actually assess technical ability, but are geared towards excluding anyone who hasn't travelled in the right circles. The employer isn't looking for someone skilled, they are looking for someone who is pre-filtered to think a certain way and know certain things.

Maybe. I tend to think that's a cynical take. Never assume malice when incompetence will suffice. This is a...youthful...industry, and a lot of junior people (with "senior" titles!) are out there doing interviews. It takes experience to become a good interviewer, and if you've never had that experience, you don't know what you don't know.

No malice is needed. Just incompetence at hiring and defaulting to the kinds of measures that don't actually determine if the person has any aptitude.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#542

Post by berkeshire »

The interviewers want to prove how much more they know, as compared to the candidate. Or worse, they have one optimal solution in mind and anything else is a square peg / round hole.

Ageism is also a factor with some age cohorts preferring to hire within their age groups who play with their cohort's favorite tech-stacks.

A badly behaved interviewer - arrogant, rushed for time and treating the interview as a nuisance, egoistic - all of these make it harder for candidates to get a job.

Data point of one: I have faced the worst lot of interviewers in startups and Unicorns, and have had the best-behaved and reasonable folks in FAANG companies.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#543

Post by joelbluminator »

siva7 wrote: post #460
joelbluminator wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are underestimating the effort it takes to inherit a big codebase and maintain it, this is not a task for a junior.

Yet i can't count how often i've seen business owners giving juniors large codebases without mentorship because they don't want to pay a senior.

Sometimes you pay a really crappy lawyer because you can't afford better.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#544

Post by cudgy »

tootie wrote: post #451
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

It's because there isn't one. So much professional advice seems to be based around a SV/FAANG mode of operations, but that just doesn't apply to a good 90% of the industry. Most tech work is done on line of business software, not megascale internet companies. Building high-design marketing websites is completely different from enterprise SaaS is completely different from infrastructure is completely different from vi…

True. Furthermore, many of these FAANG sites work terribly and are ridiculous to navigate. Where is the logout button? Oh, they purposely hid it several levels deep under a strange tiny icon menu where users won’t find it … so users stay logged in and they can be tracked by the advertising markers.

Or, why did the screen just scroll down and lose my place in the paragraph? Oh, they loaded an ad in the middle of the document and the page re-rendered itself causing jerks and fits on the screen. Nice job FAANG site!

Or try performing a sort of items by price or whatever other criteria … doesn’t work because the website wants the user to see the “suggested” items no matter what search criteria was desired y the user.

And …

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#545

Post by hsn915 »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #246
hsn915 wrote: post #198

Software Engineering is not in demand. What is in demand is cheap labor that can churn out low-quality web applications, label them MVP, and use them to convince investors to pour in money to hire more cheap labor. The biggest tell that this is true is hiring for a specific library/framework/platform. If you wanted a software engineer, you wouldn't care what particular thing they have worked with most recently. Maybe…

This isn’t true at all. Maybe in some locations (Silicon Valley? I don’t know), but every job I’ve been on has needed top level programmers for critical applications that have real world value.

They need senior level programmers, but most of them are not willing to pay much more than junior level salaries, because they think they just need copy-paste programmers.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#546

Post by bryanrasmussen »

PoignardAzur wrote: post #514
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract. I guess this just sounds weird to me. I would have to be pretty desperate to take a 1 year contract from a company that only paid me full-time wage as opposed to a contractors wage. I have to assume the Netherlands has a lot of developers seeking employment for this to work.

There's the same system in France. As GP says, it's because taking an employee on an indefinite contract is a huge responsibility, and you basically can't fire them unless they set your office on fire. In France, there's a huge temp ecosystem that was built because of that. Companies don't hire developers, they subcontract to temp agencies for limited time. The advantage for them is if they need to downsize their tea…

Ok in Denmark the system is that you get hired, if they fire you in the first month you get 2 weeks severance, after which you have (IIRC) 3 months, this part is somewhat based on seniority / contract some times you might get a 4 month severance period.

You can be fired for basically any reasonable reason though.

I again have a hard time believing you need to set fire to the office before they fire you, don't French companies ever downsize?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#547

Post by moksly »

ozzythecat wrote: post #179
moksly wrote: post #46

The demand for programmers is largely becoming a myth in my experiences. I work in public sector digitalisation in Denmark and as such come into contact with a lot of private sector companies from whom we buy development, I also work as an external examiner for CS students to keep up with the field and spot potential candidates. A decade ago my region of the country would produce maybe 50 fresh CS candidates a year,…

> decade ago my region of the country would produce maybe 50 fresh CS candidates a year, now it’s closer to 500 spread across multiple different educations. A degree is not the same as “talent”. The degree doesn’t even mean you really “learned” the fundamentals, so much as you were able to regurgitate information and pass exams. I’m a Principal at Amazon. One issue I see among CS graduates is a lack of understanding…

I don’t disagree with you but in Danish culture you get a degree or you work as unskilled labour in 99% of the cases.

Even if you don’t “need” a degree you still get one because it would be a serious handicap if you didn’t and our educational system doesn’t cost the individual money. In fact we pay you $1300 a month for 6-7 years while you work on your higher education. I’m sure we could debate the system, but the result is that almost everyone in CS/SE get a degree of at least academy level once they finish the mandatory 10 years of school + 3 years of gymnasium granting them access to the higher educations, and as such the number of educated is a very strong indicator of how many new programmers are entering the field.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#548

Post by mbfg »

if you are interviewing with a global company you also have to realize you are competing against potentially cheaper regions. If two candidates are anywhere close to similar levels, it may be that one candidate can be hired for drastically less money due to region. If you are living in a generally expensive region, this may be affecting you.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#550

Post by sandos »

exdsq wrote: post #48
colordrops wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most software positions at SpaceX, even those working on critical flight code, do not require aerospace knowledge. And SpaceX is not a great example as they hire a lot of interns and junior people willing to grind.

I find this insane and terrifying.

Iv'e worked with aerospace sims, grid-level protection products, financial products for banks and safety-certified industrial control software (even nuclear in some cases) that will result in great property damage and even death upon failure.

Basically nobody in any of those places had any domain knowledge outside that which was learnt during the act of developing and, in some rare cases, some "familiarization" courses during a day or so.

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