More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source • Hacker News Board

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#61

Post by hannob » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:22 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #35

seibelj wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s cloudy and an extended period of calm wind, it’s unacceptable for me to not have electricity, and neither is it for hospitals or nursing homes. We will always need some form of petro backup unless our queasiness with nuclear is solved.

That backup needn't be fossil fuels or nuclear. It can for example be Methane made from water and carbon dioxide.

That's an exceptionally inefficient way to do it, and it comes with the risk of methane leaks (which would then have a climate warming effect).

Hydrogen can be used directly, which skips one conversion step and doesn't need air capture for the CO2. These days no gas plant should be build that can't be converted to 100% hydrogen in the future.

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#62

Post by wumpus » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:24 AM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #34

asien wrote: post #24

What I’m more worry about those Renewables stuff is their ressource footprint , when you look at how much « rare earth » « composite » material is needed to build just one its seems like a nonsense to use wind their are many documentaries on this topic. Today the vast majority of those turbines are not recycled. On top of that wind being intermittent you need gas power plant to provide. France power provider RTE esti…

I guess one solution is smart devices and processess that can be optimized to load whwn there is peak power. Some industrial processess, such as smelting, crushing, etc can be incentivized to do that. At domestic levels, its more difficult

One easy one is charging electric cars. If they can be plugged in both at work and at home, there's a huge opportunity to charge when there's excess production.

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#63

Post by danans » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:25 AM UTC

This is good news. As wind increases on the grid we really need to move towards shiftable-load specific submetering so that an EV, water heater, etc can exploit their ability to shift demand to take advantage of times of excess renewable supply and lower prices. In CA there was a pilot of this for EVs but it seems to have fizzled out.

With today's rate structures in CA you have to choose between a plan that is optimal either for your EV or for your house but the load profile of these are very different from each other. Without 2 separate utility meters, you can't have separate rate plans.

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#64

Post by cycomanic » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #44

avmich wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the provider isn't interested in anything but the scientific truth here. /s

France runs mostly on nuclear, producing less carbon and more energy for less money than Germany which tried (and failed) to move its grid to solar and wind

France does run mostly on nuclear, but the less money claim needs some serious evidence. The reason why France can export energy more cheaply is because the cost of nuclear is pretty much all capex, so now that they have their plants it makes sense to constantly (nuclear plants can't easily be adjusted to load) run them at a high output and export excess energy. However, the overall cost is very likely much higher (the main reason why nobody wants to build new nuclear plants). France nuclear industry was (and still is?) heavily subsidised because nuclear capability (in particular military) is regarded of strategic importance.

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#65

Post by choeger » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #5

fulafel wrote: post #4

Is there a plan to eliminate coal and gas as big elements in USA's eletricity production?

If it’s cloudy and an extended period of calm wind, it’s unacceptable for me to not have electricity, and neither is it for hospitals or nursing homes. We will always need some form of petro backup unless our queasiness with nuclear is solved.

Nuclear is most economical when run 24/7. So I don't think it will be a good backup. Hydrogen and its derivatives (ammonia, methane) will take that role, I guess.

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#66

Post by adrianN » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:28 AM UTC

hannob wrote: post #61

adrianN wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That backup needn't be fossil fuels or nuclear. It can for example be Methane made from water and carbon dioxide.

That's an exceptionally inefficient way to do it, and it comes with the risk of methane leaks (which would then have a climate warming effect). Hydrogen can be used directly, which skips one conversion step and doesn't need air capture for the CO2. These days no gas plant should be build that can't be converted to 100% hydrogen in the future.

Yes that's true. But Methane is easier to store than Hydrogen. Most countries already have infrastructure in place to store months worth of Methane. And who knows, maybe we figure out some cheap redox-flow batteries or something so that neither option is the cheapest solution. In any case, there is no need for coal or fossil gas as backup, and nuclear is probably out for economical reasons (unless we have some breakthrough in reactor design in the next five years or so)

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#67

Post by asien » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

shusaku wrote: post #57

techpression wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be very wrong unfortunately. There’s currently no way to recycle or reuse the blades and it’s a big problem that nobody seems to care about. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turb... “Companies are searching for ways to deal with the tens of thousands of blades that have reached the end of their lives.” In Sweden we are making wind power company owners very rich with heavily subsidies,…

> Wind power is carbon-free and about 85% of turbine components, including steel, copper wire, electronics and gearing can be recycled or reused. That’s a far cry from “no way”.

The problem is today no industrial bother recycling them , it’s just cheaper to buy new material.

Those 85% are actually 15% in effective.

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#68

Post by aero-glide2 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:32 AM UTC

Isn't this only for US? Can you please change the title?

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#69

Post by asien » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

creato wrote: post #36

asien wrote: post #24

What I’m more worry about those Renewables stuff is their ressource footprint , when you look at how much « rare earth » « composite » material is needed to build just one its seems like a nonsense to use wind their are many documentaries on this topic. Today the vast majority of those turbines are not recycled. On top of that wind being intermittent you need gas power plant to provide. France power provider RTE esti…

> Today the vast majority of those turbines are not recycled. I really doubt this is true in any meaningful sense. First of all, I'd expect the majority of all turbines ever produced to still be in their useful service life. Second, many of the materials are valuable as scrap. It would be blatantly idiotic to just destroy and bury these materials, even if your goal is to spite environmentalists. Third, even the unsub…

Wind turbine have a recommended life time of 20 to 25 years , earlier turbines go even lower to just 15 years.

Re: More wind energy was installed in 2020 than any other energy source

#70

Post by choeger » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 6:37 AM UTC

fuoqi wrote: post #51

creato wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today the vast majority of those turbines are not recycled. I really doubt this is true in any meaningful sense. First of all, I'd expect the majority of all turbines ever produced to still be in their useful service life. Second, many of the materials are valuable as scrap. It would be blatantly idiotic to just destroy and bury these materials, even if your goal is to spite environmentalists. Third, even the unsub…

Today most of wind turbine blades get literally buried in specialized landfills [0]. Companies which produce them promise to boost recycling rate in a decade or so, but right now it's just yet another externality. Proper recycling simply costs more and it's not given that there is enough capacity for materials produced from recycled blades (you can find a similar story with plastic recycling). [0]: https://www.dailym…

There are no rare materials used in the blades.

That being said, yes, the recycling (and presumably also the environmental impact while they are running and constantly weathered) of these composites remains problematic. But they don't end up in land fills in Germany, at least:

https://www.energieagentur.nrw/blogs/erneuerbare/beitraege/r...