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Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

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Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#61
post #60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sorry, B29 is a mild outlier in terms of sizing - only 5% of the population wears B29 so we don't keep that in stock." I had this problem when I was younger with an outlier waist/inseam ratio. I was only one inseam size out of "normal" but had to catalog order my pants. I wonder how it would work now with modern supply chain efficiencies. Back then I could rely on a warehouse somewhere having my size, but just-in-ti…

If we got away from factory clothes and moved to a model where someone made two or three year's worth of clothes for $500 (well I guess the price would be based on your packages??) Then the clothing designer would input B29 and it would adjust all sorts of things and print out a pattern. Then the clothing designer could "test fit" the final shirt on a really cool adjustomatic mannequin made of weird pistons and ballo…

> If we got away from factory clothes and moved to a model where someone made two or three year's worth of clothes for $500

Lovely idea but what do the poor fools do whose weights are going up and down? I mean I know that's not 80% of the population on a given year but there is some value to being able to buy just a few garments at a time that fit approximately correctly right now, even if they won't really in another six months.

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#62

Personally I don't think the issue is "3D fitting" - the issue is that the sizing and fit of clothes hasn't both been: standardized and quantified. Do both and a 3D fitting room wouldn't be necessary to begin with.

> Personally I don't think the issue is "3D fitting" - the issue is that the sizing and fit of clothes hasn't both been: standardized and quantified. Yes, it has. The problem is that nontrivial clothing requires multidimensional fit which is impractical for mass-produced off-the-rack clothing, and marketing of mass-produced clothes is therefore driven by all kinds of things, none of which is using the well-establishe…

As technology advances, it becomes easier for us to standardize and quantize the fit of clothes in increasing dimensions. And so instead of one product having a certain cut and then it’s just got a few sizes, we could have a continuously variable design which could be produced in 10,000 sizes. Stores could carry popular sizes but any prospective buyer could check if they have their ideal fit range in stock in any items, or could order the correct size by mail.

Of course the garment industry is still heavily reliant on human labor for manufacture and the model I describe would really only work if the process is basically fully automated. But it would be nice if my clothes didn’t rely on marginalized labor in Bangladesh so I’d like a fully automated source.

Anyway you’re not wrong that it’s impractical with the current way of doing things, but it seems fully automated clothing production is advancing, so perhaps in 20 years it will be possible.

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#63
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I don't think the issue is "3D fitting" - the issue is that the sizing and fit of clothes hasn't both been: standardized and quantified. Yes, it has. The problem is that nontrivial clothing requires multidimensional fit which is impractical for mass-produced off-the-rack clothing, and marketing of mass-produced clothes is therefore driven by all kinds of things, none of which is using the well-establishe…

>Yes, it has. It most certainly has not. Even in men's legwear where your clothing is more or less fully defined by two measurements (waist circumference and inseam length), there are lots of variations between brands for garments with the same nominal size. I have 2 pairs of billabong board shorts that are slightly too big and fall down if I don't cinch the drawstrings extra tight. Size 34 waist. I have another 2 pa…

Agreed, and that's also not taking into account vanity sizing, where the differences in sizes is on purpose

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#64
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I don't think the issue is "3D fitting" - the issue is that the sizing and fit of clothes hasn't both been: standardized and quantified. Yes, it has. The problem is that nontrivial clothing requires multidimensional fit which is impractical for mass-produced off-the-rack clothing, and marketing of mass-produced clothes is therefore driven by all kinds of things, none of which is using the well-establishe…

>Yes, it has. It most certainly has not. Even in men's legwear where your clothing is more or less fully defined by two measurements (waist circumference and inseam length), there are lots of variations between brands for garments with the same nominal size. I have 2 pairs of billabong board shorts that are slightly too big and fall down if I don't cinch the drawstrings extra tight. Size 34 waist. I have another 2 pa…

I've started selecting for brands that have more information than those two measurements. Seat and taper are more helpful, for instance.

More casual button-downs are also very frustrating, as sleeve length and chest circumference aren't provided accurately for S vs M vs L

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#65
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we got away from factory clothes and moved to a model where someone made two or three year's worth of clothes for $500 (well I guess the price would be based on your packages??) Then the clothing designer would input B29 and it would adjust all sorts of things and print out a pattern. Then the clothing designer could "test fit" the final shirt on a really cool adjustomatic mannequin made of weird pistons and ballo…

> If we got away from factory clothes and moved to a model where someone made two or three year's worth of clothes for $500 Lovely idea but what do the poor fools do whose weights are going up and down? I mean I know that's not 80% of the population on a given year but there is some value to being able to buy just a few garments at a time that fit approximately correctly right now, even if they won't really in anothe…

Maybe Etsy, or re-seller sites that have used clothing.

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#66
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I don't think the issue is "3D fitting" - the issue is that the sizing and fit of clothes hasn't both been: standardized and quantified. Yes, it has. The problem is that nontrivial clothing requires multidimensional fit which is impractical for mass-produced off-the-rack clothing, and marketing of mass-produced clothes is therefore driven by all kinds of things, none of which is using the well-establishe…

>Yes, it has. It most certainly has not. Even in men's legwear where your clothing is more or less fully defined by two measurements (waist circumference and inseam length), there are lots of variations between brands for garments with the same nominal size. I have 2 pairs of billabong board shorts that are slightly too big and fall down if I don't cinch the drawstrings extra tight. Size 34 waist. I have another 2 pa…

[deleted]

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I don't think the issue is "3D fitting" - the issue is that the sizing and fit of clothes hasn't both been: standardized and quantified. Yes, it has. The problem is that nontrivial clothing requires multidimensional fit which is impractical for mass-produced off-the-rack clothing, and marketing of mass-produced clothes is therefore driven by all kinds of things, none of which is using the well-establishe…

>Yes, it has. It most certainly has not. Even in men's legwear where your clothing is more or less fully defined by two measurements (waist circumference and inseam length), there are lots of variations between brands for garments with the same nominal size. I have 2 pairs of billabong board shorts that are slightly too big and fall down if I don't cinch the drawstrings extra tight. Size 34 waist. I have another 2 pa…

> It most certainly has not.

It has, but, again, mass market clothing doesn’t use it. Bespoke clothing and tailoring does.

> Even in men's legwear where your clothing is more or less fully defined by two measurements (waist circumference and inseam length),

No, those are what mass-market panta tend to use as nominal size dimensions, with variations in the relation of those and other standard dimensions being brand or style variations (where there are options for some of them within a brand, typically multiple of them are collapsed together under another single axis like slim fit/classic fit/loose fit, which tends to lump ankle)

The standard measurements for men’s pants include all of:

waist circumference front and back crotch length hip circumference waist to knee length knee circumference thigh circumference calf circumference ankle circumference waist to ankle length inseam

(sometimes, some of these will be estimated based on visual inspection and the other measurements.)

> there are lots of variations between brands for garments with the same nominal size.

Yes, mass market clothing nominal sizes have no consistent relationship to even the things the subset of measures they noninally represent.

> Let's not even get into women's clothing where you can have such ill-defined terms like "size zero".

The only difference between women’s dress sizes and men’s pants sizes is that the former is a one-dimensional arbitrary ordinal category and the latter is two dimensional, and pretends to a (false) correspondence to a standard length measurement.

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Body types vary widely though. If you’re athletic you may have a strong shoulder to hip drop, getting shirts that are blousy in the midsection. Conversely, if you’re heavy set or short you may get garments that are overly long. Some companies do try to address this to a degree with slim or athletic cuts, and yes a tailor could take you the rest of the way ‘mostly’ there, but the future of clothing is 3D scanning and…

A 3D fitting room isn’t going to solve the issues you mention tho. I also think what you’re describing could be easily solved with more measurements of clothing you’re considering.

I’ve done just this, with a tailor doing tours for a MTM business. Took about 15 minutes to do 18 measurements. With those in their system, I can custom order any number of (dress) shirts customized in a variety of ways and they do fit well.

The issue is it just doesn’t scale well abd is limited by types of garments on offer, no standardized way to share measurements with other manufacturers, and requires we redo the process or for me to ‘guess’ at adjustments if my body changes in any material ways - they only come to major cities once a quarter or so.

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#69
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Body types vary widely though. If you’re athletic you may have a strong shoulder to hip drop, getting shirts that are blousy in the midsection. Conversely, if you’re heavy set or short you may get garments that are overly long. Some companies do try to address this to a degree with slim or athletic cuts, and yes a tailor could take you the rest of the way ‘mostly’ there, but the future of clothing is 3D scanning and…

> Body types vary widely though. The GP is more referring to companies who deliberately don't conform to standards. Best example of this is women's clothing that alter sizes so they are more appealing to women who don't traditionally fit that size number. TL;DR - "Omg I finally fit in a size 2 dress" is a huge selling point, even if its not categorically true.

Understood, that’s an issue in itself.

But as someone who is on the shorter side with an athletic body type, almost no clothing produced today (aside from high end made in US brands) fits me at all. Vintage stuff does. No amount of standardization will get around that. I have to pay more for tailoring, getting custom made, or spending tons of time searching out boutique brands that work for my body type.

What I’m suggesting fixes it all.

Re: Gap acquires 3D fitting room startup Drapr

#70
There's a lot of interesting discussion here!

I am the ex-CTO and co-founder of a company that does 3D-scan-based fit, specifically ML-based morphology extraction from 3D data of people (www.treedys.com , not a YC company ;-) ).

A lot of the points raised here in the comments are very valid: there is absolutely no consensus on standardisation of "fit"... but even if there was: "fit" is a very complicated concept that means different things to people in different settings. Furthermore there is often no consensus even inside big clothing companies as to which grading system (this is the "fit catalog" so to speak) is to be used for a specific collection / year / style etc... and those companies that do have this kind of thing standardised are often fighting with internal staff that grew up in a non-digital era to keep the documentation up to date, make sure the right files are shared, push people towards using digital design tools consistently etc...

But this does not mean - by any stretch - that the current system cannot be improved! There are many things that can be done with morphological data that are not immediately obvious in terms of improving fit for individual end users. Comparing "tshirt measurements" VS "human measurements" is the obvious starting point, but this is not actually the best way to make real-life recommendations, and there are many better systems that are possible once you have high quality metrics! Here is one for example: what about completely disregarding the "extracted body measurements in inches", and just building a flywheel where you take people's entire set of say 250 measurements as a vector, and use this data point along with a set of items they have bought (for themselves) and not returned. Once you have this kind of data for, say, 5000 people and 50 SKUs of items of clothing... you can build a very granular recommendation system, based on morphology, which will take into account many aspects of "fit" that are not immediately obvious in the measurements...

One thing is for sure: the big incumbents in fashion retail have felt the sting of shifting to an online-first world. In 2020 the total dollar amount of merchandise returned from online retail doubled (https://nrf.com/media-center/press-releases/428-billion-merc...). Literally: double the volume in one year. This was especially impactful in online fashion, where returns have always been a giant cost and a limiting factor to expansion ... but up until 2020 fashion retailers had been delaying action while desperately trying to modernise other aspects of their businesses, and morphology data felt like "too big of a problem for now.

Now, in 2021, with a few big players like Amazon taking the lead in "morphology-based fit" the situation is changing... and even the slowest fashion brands are starting to realise that not having a fit / morphology strategy in 2021 is starting to look like an automotive manufacturer NOT having an EV strategy in 2012 when Tesla was releasing the model S...

We're feeling it: after hanging on by the skin of our teeth for 6 years building deep tech solutions ( 3D ML to map a naked body on messy point cloud data of a clothed person for example, that was a tough nut to crack!), we're suddenly getting a lot more inbound from people we could not get on phone for a 5-minute conversation 2 years ago. And we finally have our first public-facing deployments in-store, using the full capture-to-ML stack (all developed in-house) that we have been crafting all this time! It feels good to finally get a product out and start getting the feedback loop going after so long.

All of this to say: congrats to Drapr, They made a great product and their timing was excellent! Let's hope this helps GAP achieve it's sustainability goals and reduce returns and waste, because in the end this will be the major benefit to all of us :) But in any case: morphology-based-fit is now "an idea whose time has come", and we can expect a lot of cool new things to come from this over the next few years!

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