If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job? • Hacker News Board

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#481

Post by shagie » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:21 PM UTC

siva7 wrote: post #464

shagie wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apprenticeships in a trade tend to be such that with sufficient hard work and determination, anyone can fill the trade requirements. The problem solving skills of software development don't seem to fit that model - there are some people, no matter how much you train them, don't seem to be able to move beyond "follow instructions" to "give tasks" when it comes to developing software. The second part is that the trade…

Which is more a symptom of bad apprenticeship and i believe we don't acknowledge enough that there are too many shops doing a bad job on training the apprentice.

This then asks a two part question:

* How do we prevent a predatory apprenticeship?

* How do we ensure that a non-predatory apprenticeships are able to keep their staff for a long enough duration that they're not losing out?

There is a part B to the first question on preventing predatory apprenticeships. There was an anecdote told on reddit of a person who was trying to get out of tech support and so signed with Revature for becoming a software developer, went through their bootcamp and then got placed at a company. That company found that he was rather skilled at doing tech support (rather than as a junior dev) and so moved his contract over to do tech support... getting paid less than he was getting paid doing tech support prior to joining Revature. Furthermore, the locked in two year contract meant that he did tech support for two years. At the end of this, he's got two more years of tech support on his resume that paid him less than what he was making before and no additional software development accomplishments.

So yea... Predatory apprenticeships are a problem.

The way that the "stay around long enough" of old was a signing bonus. When I started in '96 with Taos ($54k/y), I got a $5k signing bonus and $1/mile moving bonus (Mapquest was a new thing - HR was amazed at how much easier that was going to make their job in calculating the moving bonus). If I left before a year was up, I'd have to pay it back.

That works reasonably well enough when salaries are about balanced overall. But it works poorly when there are some jobs that can either offer a much larger bonus or the new pay can quickly repay the bonus. If you're making $75k/y and have a $10k bonus to repay and then get a job for $150k that bonus can be repaid within a month or so (by the time accounting sends out the "pay us back" the bonus is ready to be paid back with the increase).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#482

Post by trutannus » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #319

DeBraid wrote: post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

> "Senior Full Stack" Also why companies will hire someone with 3 years of experience into a senior position.

Had this happen to me at my first official dev job. Had 'junior developer' in bold at the top in my resume, application, and in several emails to the hiring manager. Got hired, and quit within 2 months. Manager would become upset at times over knowledge gaps I had as a result of being a junior, and the solution they came up with was for me to dedicate my weekends to unpaid, self-directed training.

At some point I actually reminded the manager that I was a junior, which resulted in them acting shocked and saying something to the effect of "well, let's hope that's not the case", and was basically flat out told they have no time for a junior. This was the manager who interviewed me, read my resume, and recommended me for the position.

I was replaced by a university undergrad student on summer break when I quit. I don't think people realize how the problem here often isn't you. Organizations with deep dysfunction are more common that you'd like.

Happy ending though. Got a new position the week I quit, and all turned out well.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#483

Post by mitjak » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:27 PM UTC

steelframe wrote: post #191

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

The first time I interviewed at Google I didn’t make it past the phone screen. I bombed a question about an appropriate length of a Bloom filter because I hadn’t recently been thinking about Bloom filters, and I was summarily rejected for onsites. The second time I interviewed I was asked a number of questions that I was perfectly “primed” to answer. Because those were in my brain’s cache, I was able to get through t…

this needs to be one of the highest rated comments squarely due to how much luck (or gruelling prep) is involved in effectively memorizing answers, i.e. the issue with technical interviews to begin with.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#484

Post by phendrenad2 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:32 PM UTC

spo81rty wrote: post #278

Just because you have a degree or think you are a software developer, it doesn't mean you are any good at it and should be hired. Companies are substantially better off having fewer developers than having bad ones. Bad developers take a lot of time to train, manage, QA their work, fix their work, fix their work again, and then finally someone else just does it. They are in fact a net NEGATIVE impact on the team. You…

Why does it take longer to QA their work? Do you not QA "the good developers" work? Why does their work need to be fixed and re-fixed? Do you not have a test suite?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#485

Post by unoti » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #82

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

>our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. They even do this crap to people with CS degrees. If a 4 year CS degree isn't enough, then people who do this have no idea what they are doing. I started in this field in 1997. The interviews were more old fashioned, a few tech questions, see if you were an oddball, then they'd get back to you. If you didn't w…

> If a 4 year CS degree isn't enough, then people who do this have no idea what they are doing.

I’ve interviewed many people with 4 year CS degrees who can’t really code. I’m not sure how this happens, but it definitely does. I disagree that having a CS degree should excuse candidates from coding interviews.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#486

Post by sx_throwaway2 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #58

dfxm12 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they hire a lot of interns and junior people willing to grind Is this a euphemism for an employer overworking and underpaying their talent?

Overworking, but probably not underpaying. I remember hearing about how much a SpaceX intern was payed and being shocked (it was several X my scientist pay)... Then she told me how many hours she was working, and it made some more sense (but it still seemed high -- scientists often also work 80+ hours)

When I worked at SpaceX I had one of the saddest comp packages I've ever had in a long career. I left for a competitor and got 35% more just walking in the door, plus I don't have to deal with an inhumane company culture. I honestly don't know what Elon is going to do when he runs out of people to chew up and spit out.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#487

Post by engineer_t » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

recently interviewed with Robinhood. Their phone screen started with a system design interview, but man I felt so uncomfortable using the tool that they had shared. The interviewer created a text box in the tool and copy pasted a multi paragraph question. The font sizes were little too big, I had to constantly scroll up and down to read the question. After brief introductions, giving previous work/project summary, understanding the question, stating and clarifying my assumptions, writing down product requirements, identifying tech stack, I was already 25 minutes in for 50 minutes interview and from there on I was told to speed up and within the next 20 minutes, I was asked to make it scale, fault tolerant and all this even before I could properly illustrate and communicate my design. It was very confusing to be constantly switching between different design paradigms before being able to explain one. As expected I didn't clear it but at the very least the recruiter later did follow up and I communicated my feedback on the interview. Hopefully they take these feedback and make the interview process better.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#488

Post by quanticle » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

xtracto wrote: post #332

_f1dq wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

Reading all of these accounts of horrors in HackerNews I feel my idea of creating a "TOEFL for Developers" would be perfect. (I am hesitant to describe my idea, but WTH, I'm currently not in a position to act on it, and they say ideas are dime a dozen so...): For those of you for whom English is not your first language, you surely know what TOEFL is: Test of English as a Foreign Language. The private company provides…

Now, the nice thing about the TOEFL score is its reputation: When you are going to study into a University (from Oxford to Liverpool, from Harvard to Queensland), if you are not a native English speaker, the university asks you to take a TOEFL (or equivalent) and get a score higher than X. As long as you provide that score, the university won't ask any questions. They don't doubt your English proficiency skills.

They should. My university had a minimum TOEFL score requirement. The number of grad students who passed that requirement, but then couldn't write a coherent English sentence to save their lives was still incredibly high.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#489

Post by wheelinsupial » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

slumdev wrote: post #75

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

> I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Credentialing organizations already exist[1], but none have lobbied the US government to prevent the uncredentialed from practicing. Perhaps it's time. If none of the existing orgs are good enough, start a new one. 1. https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-sof…

Didn’t this exist with the PE designation in software engineering in the US?

https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-en...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#490

Post by robotnikman » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

jelling wrote: post #67

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

Reminds me of how too long ago they ended up hiring someone with a very controversial background, and quickly backpedaled on the decision. Seems like they need to take a long look at their hiring practices