If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job? • Hacker News Board

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#471

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

xpe wrote: post #321

commandlinefan wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're going through the front door, you've already lost. I've heard that advice in various forms but I must say (anecdote incoming) - in my own 30 year career, the best jobs I've ever had were the random ones that I just applied for and the worst ones were the ones that somebody I knew from before recruited me in from outside.

How many jobs have you had? You talked about the best and the worst. Can you comment on the relationship between (y-axis) quality of job and (x-axis) strength of personal connection before you joined. If you plotted a scatterplot, what relationship would you find?

I've changed jobs ten times since 1992. As it works out, exactly half of them I was recruited into by an internal reference and the other half I found on a job board like Monster or LinkedIn. By far, the two best were relatively large organizations that I applied to cold, and the two absolute worst were actually the ones I was most actively recruited into by former co-workers. I suspect that the problem in both of the latter cases was that they worked so hard to bring me in that they ended up overselling me - I'm good, but I'm also a human who has two kids to look after. On the other hand, if I'm "just" the best candidate from the pile of resumes, expectations seem to be reasonable.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#472

Post by deeblering4 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

nickff wrote: post #467

deeblering4 wrote: post #462

Why is it hard? Because Google ruined technical interviews with irrelevant trivia and excessively long interview loops. For some reason a lot of the industry said "hey, if Google does that it must be right!" and they also started asking pointless trivia questions in very long loops. But why stop there? Let's build out pointless trivia as a service, and assign a numerical score to represent your ability to perform poi…

I agree with most of what you say, especially about simplifying and shortening the process, but I'm not sure about: > "It's a risky proposition in both directions" It seems like the worst case for the developer is that they get paid for doing nothing useful for a while, then have to find another job. The worst case for the company is that they pay out a bunch of money, and dedicate a variety of resources, to someone…

> they get paid for doing nothing useful for a while, then have to find another job.

That's true, but if they took advantage and get fired then they would have poor references and a spotty employment history, which will negatively affect getting another job (and would have been a factor in the hiring of the current role). So in that way there is an incentive for the candidate to perform well in order to maintain their career, and they do risk that track record to some extent when taking on a new role. It sucks for both sides if things don't work out.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#473

Post by jaaron » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #434

addicted wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of a bad hire is extremely high. It's not their salary or bonus, etc. It's how they can affect a team, the product, and the deliverables.

That makes no sense because, presumably, the alternative is to have no-one. If you don't hire someone because you are worried about the team, you don't need to hire anyone (this risk is, also, not avoidable anyway...if your product is so fragile, the risk isn't making a hiring mistake).

Most small to midsized organizations would prefer to deal with false-negatives during hiring (missing out on good talent) than the issues of false-positives (bad hires). Often times (not always) no one is preferable to a bad hire.

A bad hire can set everything back significantly more. Not only do you have to deal with new missed deadlines or poor quality work, but you often have to deal with the fallout with team members. Plus you're using up a lot of management/leadership hours dealing with it.

The impact is even more important the more senior the role. Hiring a bad manager or lead can impact way more than hiring a bad fresh-out-of-school grad.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#474

Post by lowercased » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:09 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #459

lowercased wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers. Probably should be...? You're typically getting paid more because of "no benefits". (I HATE the word 'benefits', FWIW). Buy your own health insurance - it's more accessible in the US via ACA. Yeah, you might miss out on some 401k matching. Save it yourself?

"Contract" in this use does not mean the same thing as contract work in the US. It is a full-time position with all the benefits therein, except at the end of a year the employer can choose not to renew it. It is not equivalent to US 1099/freelance work.

"Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers."

It might happen, but every long-term contract gig via a contracting house has offered approximately equivalent benefits to some regular W2 employer. Those sorts of engagements typically have you as W2, just with the contracting house, not the end company. I've worked a handful (6mo, 12mo), and known people who stay in those situations for years - they accrue PTO and get 401k matching, just all through the contract agency. I suppose there are some agencies that don't offer that, but you'd likely get a higher rate.

But... this is all from a US perspective. I've done all 3 - direct W2 employee, independent consultant/contractor, and 'contracted to large company to resell my time to someone else'. In the last case, W2 or 'corp to corp' was an option as well (though not always).

Also had that "can choose not to renew it" - worked out 6 month contract, didn't renew.

I guess I'm not sure what the reply was for...? I quoted "contract work (without benefits) is not an option" and you're telling me "Contract...is a full-time position with all the benefits therein".

I think there's some talking past each other going on here...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#475

Post by ndesaulniers » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:09 PM UTC

DeBraid wrote: post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

> Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent.

Or many firms want to hire senior-level talent at junior-level prices.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#476

Post by lizknope » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

yobbo wrote: post #338

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I was nodding my head in agreement as I read this when something occurred to me. This all requires that the interviewer be willing to interact deeply with the candidate. Our profession has a (well deserved, I think) reputation for having a high percentage of people who really don't like interacting with others on a peer level. Is it likely that a large part of the problem is that we have people doing interv…

> if your typical response to talking to another technical person is immediately to try to one-up them The psychological reality behind all this is even worse. The interviewer is not looking for new colleagues, he is looking to improve his own self-esteem and rank. The reward for rejecting a candidate is a feeling of superiority and an appearance of being irreplaceable. The interviewer and the candidate have opposing…

I'm in semiconductor design not software but my goal is always "I've got way too much work, is this person good enough that after a few months of training they will be able to do some of my work so I can get more sleep?"

If the person is smarter than me even better! Instead of spending time teaching them maybe I can learn from them and get into their network so that if I ever need a job in the future they can help me out.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#477

Post by munk-a » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

At one point I was working in the gaming industry and really wanted out. I was talking to a hiring consultant and asked if it'd be helpful to give my notice now so I could be available for an interview at the drop of a hat... to which they responded "Hell no, not only will you put yourself at financial risk - it'll likely take you longer to find a new job." I've been unemployed and snapped up for a job before - but it was that gaming job and I wanted to hop over to a place that offered a better work-life balance.

It's been my personal anecdotal observation (enough qualifiers yet?) that unemployed folks are similar to the last pear in the supermarket. Sure, that pear might look fine and be perfectly ripe - but two hundred people picked two hundred pears from a pile... and no one picked that one. When you are unemployed and looking for work I suspect you end up getting rejected by a number of places out of hand since, while there's no solid evidence proving it, you might have something wrong with you as an employee since no one is currently employing you. Once you've landed a position - especially if your LinkedIn shows several title bumps during your tenure - all the vultures salivate over how likely it is that you're a high value employee.

With engineering in particular, solid reliable team-players are worth their weight in gold, and, from the outside, there is a strong perception of vast differences in employee skills that I think is mostly driven by the extreme wage disparities we can observe "Sure I've got Sharon and they're a really solid developer - but I only pay them 45k, those hackers in SV make 250k plus bonuses. I can only imagine how amazing they are!" I think this is somewhat further entrenched by the extreme role experience with similar problems plays - and the really deep levels of specialization we have in our industry. Database specialists are absolute wizards when it comes to database stuff and can resolve problems in a fraction of the time someone who's never touched a DB would[1] - and yet both of those developers might be employed as full stack developers. Engineering is really complicated and our field has yet to fracture as much as it really ought to into specialization - so the majority of folks dip their toes into a lot of different pools.

This is totally based on opinion and personal experience but I think that specialization is what really makes it hard to "break in" to engineering - and that specialization makes overcoming the unemployed stigma even harder than in other fields.

1. This isn't an insult to the other developer btw - it's just a lack of experience and possibly a pre-disposition. There are plenty of people who are wizards with a database that will just fumble like they've never seen a lego before if given a ticket to resolve having to do with ops - or systems programming.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#478

Post by Banana699 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #361

jelling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I interviewed for a front-end dev position (it was my first ever interview in the industry, I vomited before I got there so it was a pretty crazy day). I come in. The front-end guy starts asking me questions to try and solve something he is working on. No-one else is there yet. He is asking me about why a JS compiler is removing his comments, I say I don't know, I have never had that issue before...I make an off-hand…

>He is asking me about why a JS compiler is removing his comments

Huh ? language parsers remove comments because they're comments, that's literally by definition. Are you (or your past interviewer) using "comments" in a different sense ?

(Also, not trying to be a pedant on you I swear, but technically JS is traditionally interpreted. Most mature runtimes have compilers but it's not part of the API. It's just a juvenile pet peeve of mine when language implementations are generically referred to as compilers.)

>he actually said as I was leaving "make sure you understand databases for your next interview" with a massive shit-eating grin

I sincerely hope from my heart of hearts that company or department is in it's well deserved position in the depths of the toilet now, or at any rate that specific person.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#479

Post by bryanrasmussen » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

deanclatworthy wrote: post #412

debarshri wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.

Three years sounds reasonable, one not so much. For the lack of security at one year, an actual contracting role might be more lucrative. Is it the case you can earn (quite a bit) more as a contractor, compared to full-time employment in NL? At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course).

>At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course).

The rule I have always followed - though I don't remember where I picked it up - is that contracting should earn you twice as much as your full time salary - that way the risk etc. evens out.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#480

Post by bryanrasmussen » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

debarshri wrote: post #400

deanclatworthy wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except job security. If you join a company in Finland on a permanent contract, once you have passed the trial period (6 months nowadays), it's quite difficult to get rid of you. Changing jobs can be a hassle. It means learning new names, potentially changing private healthcare provider, getting new equipment and setup, learning new company politics.

True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.

>True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.

I guess this just sounds weird to me. I would have to be pretty desperate to take a 1 year contract from a company that only paid me full-time wage as opposed to a contractors wage.

I have to assume the Netherlands has a lot of developers seeking employment for this to work.