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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#441
So I've had this idea for a little while, still extremely rough and potentially controversial, but I've talked to a number of people who agree. Its based both on my own experience as well as chatting with other developers.

It seems to me, that there are "classes" of developers. This is not necessarily tied to market or ability, but those can definitely be be big contributors to which class you fall in. Prior to me entering the field professionally, blog posts, articles, etc. seemed to promise an easy six figure salary to anyone who could remotely code, smooth sailing after you get that first job and other highly appealing things. I have a good feeling a number of people on here would likely agree with this reality. For others I've spoken to, this was never the case. I never saw any of that personally. Reasons being both circumstantial and me not understanding the reality of things and being to quick to settle.

I talk to developers from all categories: new grads in the bay area bragging about offers at companies and startups you've heard of, experienced guys in the midwest who claim to still be able to take home salaries unheard of in any other field, or guys who have a decade of experience, but struggle to find a role to pivot into, and all sorts of others.

What always strikes me is they seem to live in different worlds. I had always considered local market to be the big differentiator, but the more I speak to people in the same market with wildly different experiences I start to question that. Particularly in this time where remote work should in theory expose more opportunity to people tied to local markets for whatever reason. Type of company seems to be the big differentiator here, and I don't mean in domain/industry or a tech/non-tech oversimplified manor.

Instead of noticed personally, that the only companies willing to talk to me are very similar to the ones I've worked for in the past. This isn't even about the "stack" being used either, but more about the organization. Similarly people working in prestigious companies seem to be targeted by other prestigious companies. But the interesting divide to me is not upper bound/lower bound, but lower bound/middle bound. People who claim to be commanding impressive salaries while doing run-of-the mill, not particularly intense or specialized work at no name companies, but are talking about median salaries above what any roles I've ever seen is willing to offer. These aren't even in high CoL cities all the time, but the numbers I could likely get cap out at least a few dozen thousand below the quoted median salaries without moving into management.

The problem of course, is when you're in the lower "classes" and want to move up. Especially at the experienced level, where you're expected in more desirable roles to have experience with X or Y, but the roles in your past never could have given you the exposure to that. The typical move seems to be to grind leetcode and pray you can get an offer through some avenue or another, but most people agree cold-applications are a waste of time, and the sort of recruiters you need are not the ones reaching out to you. Referrals seem to be the best shot here. Personally I never figured out networking. I've typically jumped more often and more quickly than my immediate colleagues, due to severe underpayment in my earliest years at places most people settle and become lifers.

I actually enjoy discussing things like this, so if it doesn't get buried by the hundreds of other comments, so please tell me why I'm wrong/right/etc. This was probably an very poor description as the idea is still rather abstract up in my head.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#442
More demand -> increased prices for developer time. Greater costs / impact / scale of software development -> greater risk to the collective stakeholders. Greater risk -> more potential for reactionary measures to implement more stringent hiring / control mechanisms.

That's how you end up with many many interviews, lengthy code exercises, and huge opportunity costs for everyone involved.

Consequently the same pressures would apply to software project management procedures towards growing complexity, and less agency/autonomy.

Why does it seem like 'AGILE' often transforms into less of an idea of short feedback loops, context and communication and more into a bureaucratic control system? We implement control systems to reduce state space of unknowns / chaos and trade-off variance in favor of consistency. So if software in organizations is under high demand, increased cost, and greater risk it would also suggest likelihood of similar reactionary measures to implement control systems measures on software development as a whole.

Consequently the ever present trade-offs of exploration vs exploitation or global vs local maximum would also apply meaning the reactionary measure of increasing control and consistency has side effects counter to its very purpose: improving software capabilities. Instead of increasing stringency / consistency through process/procedure also increasing cost of interaction one would instead want to reduce cost of interaction, but also reduce costs of downsides upon hiring (e.g. contract to hire + tasks to prove but where acceptability of failure is present). This has the added benefit of not accidentally removing "exploration" from the equation allowing higher risk higher reward employees into the organization which reduces risk of overfitting and innovator dilemma problems.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand how different bits of the stack fit together? have they ruled out network issues before digging into the code? etc. I don't know. I think I'm pretty good at troubleshooting on the job (since I can be the one to troubleshoot & solve the trickier bugs) but thinking about doing it in an inter…

page loads slowly ... it is the database query man ... make sure to join the fields properly :-)

Yeah this is generally what I'm trying to lead them to.

If it's not a network issue, it's probably the database, right? Generally you've got an n+1 and/or some individual huge slow queries. I'd interested in knowing how the candidate would zero in on the database possibility and how they might narrow it down from there.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#444

More demand -> increased prices for developer time. Greater costs / impact / scale of software development -> greater risk to the collective stakeholders. Greater risk -> more potential for reactionary measures to implement more stringent hiring / control mechanisms. That's how you end up with many many interviews, lengthy code exercises, and huge opportunity costs for everyone involved. Consequently the same pressur…

I remember someone on HN said a few years ago that $500K a year was a CEO's salary in a midsize company in the midwest of the US. Now imagine how long it takes a CEO to find a new job.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#446

Everything about interviewing sucks. Being the interviewer sucks. Being the interviewee sucks. The politics of hiring sucks. I hate it on both sides. The more I interview people the more empathy I have for good candidates who can't get hired. I've seen so many potentially good candidates passed over because someone in the hiring chain didn't find them good. Usually this has to do with "lacking experience with X techn…

0.9^7 If you have a 90% chance of getting everyone you meet to like you, but any one of them has the power to veto your entire candidacy, then after 7 "rounds" you are not likely to get the job.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#447
Top anybody interested, I setup a google form, completely anonymous, asking programmers their opinions on the interview process. I'm working towards building something better that is re-usable and makes life easier across the board.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSc8neScWE0-gmc00u1s...

So far, based on the responses, I'm seeing trends like: side projects barely matter, wages can be used as leverage to find better jobs, companies investing in your career are really important, etc...

If I get enough data, I will post my results somewhere public and I will offer some packaged services to companies and developers alike that I think alleviates the issues we're currently seeing in the tech hiring process.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#448
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

"Is this how working with these guys is going to be?" Unfortunately, yes. Young engineers are terrible at communication and working with others. Partly due to workplace incentives and partly because you must realize that entire generations have grown up with computers and not people.

In all honesty it's not just younger developers. I have worked in plenty of companies where the idea of "communication" needed to be stressed and would of fixed many problems and saved a lot of money.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#449
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects, coding knowledge tests, etc. Very small sample size but we've had good results skipping coding exams entirely, and simply talking through some scenarios with candidates. - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand…

"tell us about a tricky technical challenge you solved" I have so much trouble remembering previous challenges I've overcome. I don't ruminate on them, I just move on...

Yes, I have found that this question just selects for people who can recall well on the spot, or worse, can make up some a believable canned war story and articulate it well. As such, it is really testing a particular set of social skills which have minimal bearing on an engineer's ability to do their job.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a cut-throat environment, where 10% of people are PIP'ed, it is expected: your senior colleagues are not going to help you, will lead you down a wrong path, etc. That way, the tribal knowledge will be with them, and they can outshine any new employee. In your interview case, they should have given you hints, even if they want to not hire you later.

That’s not how 10% attrition works at any notable company.

I know some MIT labs work that way. Backstabbing people b/c there are only so many upper positions instead of titling and paying people their skill level you would have to wait for someone to retire.
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