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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#381

Post by Ginden »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #219
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're a good doctor. Most of us have had experiences with bad doctors. The exams they took could have been decades ago, but what does that tell us about how they've performed recently?

It's quite hard to be really bad physician - because Pareto principle applies to medicine. As far as I remember, 5 autoimmune diseases (of >120 described; ~4%) make up for 80% of total autoimmune diseases. My relative did research on kidney diseases and results were similar.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#382

Post by polotics »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #216
raincom wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a cut-throat environment, where 10% of people are PIP'ed, it is expected: your senior colleagues are not going to help you, will lead you down a wrong path, etc. That way, the tribal knowledge will be with them, and they can outshine any new employee. In your interview case, they should have given you hints, even if they want to not hire you later.

That’s not how 10% attrition works at any notable company.

Pray tell, can you clarify what's incorrect in the above description?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#383

Post by pdimitar »

slumdev wrote: post #363
pdimitar wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, where are you coming from? 19.5 years of programming, but mostly web programming for the last ~12. I want to move away from that, I am sick of it already. There's always something more to learn and even though I don't mind at all -- it keeps my mind sharp which is something I want to keep all the way to my death! -- the churn of knowledge in there is exhausting. > If you have a CS degree... I am not from USA…

> 19.5 years of programming, but mostly web programming for the last ~12. I want to move away from that, I am sick of it already. There's always something more to learn and even though I don't mind at all -- it keeps my mind sharp which is something I want to keep all the way to my death! -- the churn of knowledge in there is exhausting. The churn of knowledge can be limited by choosing technologies that don't requir…

> IMO, a "code janitor" doesn't just sit around all day reading HN. When I use those words, I mean the type of job where you're expected to fix bugs and implement features and not much else.

Yes. We are on the same page, just using different words.

I definitely didn't mean "slacking off". I meant exactly what you said: have 3.5 to 4.5 hours of good solid programming work per day (because realistically that's what most programmers cover in terms of actual focused productive time in the standard 8h work day) where you have already ticked the boxes (or nobody cares about them as you said) so you just pull stuff from a backlog and move at a steady pace with not much supervision.

The company I am very soon starting with has people I like very much, plus I love what they do. But if that turns sour then I'd likely be looking for 2-3 "code janitor" jobs in parallel in order to protect my mental health for a while.

> When a recruiter wants to connect on LinkedIn and have a short phone conversation about an exciting new position, you always say yes.

Maybe you are right. To me outright insisting on a phone call is very disruptive and out of place. I've tried it several times and maybe I drew the short end of the stick every time but they all were young and fairly clueless HRs who just wanted to parrot their speech that was supposed to motivate me and then immediately pressure me for an answer. Don't know, didn't find that a good expenditure of my time.

Maybe I am doing something wrong, I am open to that, but I really am not sure that I want to expose myself to such toxic time wasters. Any advice?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#384

Post by ArtTimeInvestor »

I think the concept of "getting a job" will go away. It is from an area where we did not have software and the internet to work together efficiently as we do now.

"Giving you a job" carries work and risk. "Accepting a job" too. We do not need that type of friction anymore.

I think systems like Upwork will become the norm. Where you just start working on some small task. Without much of an application. Without much expectation. Then both sides can grow together over time and work together more and more.

To me, the old way of writing and reading applications seems rather insane these days. Imagine we would do the same for relationships. No more dating. Write and read letters instead. Then meet and talk once or twice and then BOOM: Marriage. Nobody would want that. I think we will abandon it for jobs too.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#385

Post by herbturbo »

mywittyname wrote: post #268
herbturbo wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never understood this way of interviewing. I get shit now and then for helping people too much in coding exercises, but if someone has reached the point where they are obviously not going to progress why not nudge them along and see how they respond? I've found that the ability to receive and act on guidance with a certain degree of humility is a much better signal of someone's potential than how many algorithms they…

Interviewing is hard . It takes a lot of practice to know what level of assistance to provide at what time. A coworker once showed me a technique of keeping a google doc with the problems, as well as a step-by-step of the solution and the times at which they should be at that step. It always seemed to work out well for the candidates, as even a poor candidate would finish the problem at like 55 minutes into a 60 min…

Yes some people just need a nudge in the right direction to carry the task through to completion. And some need to be pushed along the entire way. In either case they don't leave the interview feeling humiliated having floundered in the face of smug silence.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#386

Post by Sutanreyu »

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

Can I get a job? I've been on multiple stages of interviews, of which, some are 2+ hours of coding and even if it seems promising and that everyone's happy... I still end up getting looked over. Even programs like returnships that are specifically for people who've been out of the game for 1+ year, despite showing them that I can code and architect software... I'm still kept waiting and don't get in. I feeling pretty dispirited at this point.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#387

Post by kodah »

I think SWE requires two things:

- a centralized accrediting authority with uniform standards.

- a apprenticeship model.

An apprenticeship model let's you score folks while they're early in their careers and provides a standardized way to traverse levels of software engineering. This will show an engineer can write code.

In my opinion, writing code is not the same as writing optimal code, and also isn't uniformly required. For finding people that can write optimal code you need someone with a more mathematics heavy background. That is where a centralized accrediting entity can determine that you have tested on algorithms, data structures, and how they are related for entities that need that. This differs from college because the standard is uniform.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#388

Post by rdw »

I currently believe that it is because software engineers are non-substitutable. The hiring manager is not looking for any qualified engineer, they are looking for a very specific engineer who is also qualified. Engineers also are not looking for "any programming job", they want a job at an early-stage startup or in an infrastructure team or to learn a new framework. This is true in many industries, of course, but significantly more so for software.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#389

Post by deanclatworthy »

debarshri wrote: post #375
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool. Lots of good candidates can't or won't give up their full time jobs to take a time-limited contract job. Those who can take contract work are often more talented and more in demand, meaning they're less worried about finding another job if the contract isn't r…

When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.

Except job security. If you join a company in Finland on a permanent contract, once you have passed the trial period (6 months nowadays), it's quite difficult to get rid of you.

Changing jobs can be a hassle. It means learning new names, potentially changing private healthcare provider, getting new equipment and setup, learning new company politics.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#390

Post by weeblewobble »

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

this is advice i give to a lot of people trying to get into the business or switch jobs. no matter how prepared or qualified you are, every interview is a roll of the dice. maybe the interviewer is in a bad mood. maybe you're in a bad mood. maybe there's a communications barrier. maybe there's some organizational issue (too many candidates in pipeline, re-org, etc.) that causes the bar to temporarily be set extremely high. It's ultimately a numbers game and it doesn't make sense to get too invested in one company or read too much into one result
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