If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job? • Hacker News Board

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#351

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:10 PM UTC

herbturbo wrote: post #196

_f1dq wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

Never understood this way of interviewing. I get shit now and then for helping people too much in coding exercises, but if someone has reached the point where they are obviously not going to progress why not nudge them along and see how they respond? I've found that the ability to receive and act on guidance with a certain degree of humility is a much better signal of someone's potential than how many algorithms they…

> and see how they respond

Actually being able to take a hint and work with the interviewer is a strong signal that a candidate, while maybe not the best for the job, has growth potential.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#352

Post by xtracto » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:10 PM UTC

bschwindHN wrote: post #131

jelling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

They're too busy writing self congratulatory blog posts on their hiring process to have time to improve it. https://alexgolec.dev/reddit-interview-problems-the-game-of-...

That's actually a nifty problem in itself, I don't see anything wrong. Of course I have learned that the actual "proposition" of whatever problem is not what is right/wrong in an interview.

The way I would apply that problem interviewing someone is: We have 1 hour. Here is this problem (to which of course I know the solution to already).

How would you solve it? Let's solve it together so that I can see your decisions, your code, do you use exceptions? do you use specific type of exception for different errors? do you split functionality in a lot of functions? do you know nifty language tricks (maybe a bit of code golfing or functional constructs if JavaScript or Ruby).

The problem comes when the "interview problem" is passed from the creator to the "mid-level" Engineer who now has to do the interview. For them it becomes: "Ok, you gotta implement this in one hour", and they don't know the nuances or reasons for the problem.

I've seen this first hand with an equivalent problem. I had all this nice interview process that I applied, and the first time I shadowed one developer so that he could do the interview, he was just looking at the poor interviewee fail due to nerves, with the aim to evaluate him only on the merits of how far a set of working code did he had.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#353

Post by timr » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

mateo411 wrote: post #283

timr wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending - source of data in Python?" > The answer to this question is to use a generator. If you don't know this, then both people are going to wish that they had that half hour of their life back. That's funny...I've implemented more than my share of such things in a long career, and my first intuition for an answer to the question, as phrased, w…

> According to you, I'd be so wrong that I'm a waste of time. I don't think so, because you actually know about generators. If you were hiring for people who had a lot of Python experience, but didn't know about generators, that would be a bad sign. You would probably want to ask a some other questions, so you would have a more complete picture of what the candidate knows. My main point is that the company's intervie…

> I don't think so, because you actually know about generators.

Sure, but will the OP give me a chance to demonstrate, or simply flip the idiot bit as soon as I don't give the expected response? In the context of a phone interview, I probably wouldn't get anywhere near discussion of python generators in an answer to this question. I'd probably say something like:

"For an infinite stream, my main concern is system resources, which are never infinite...I'd want to use something like stream sampling to calculate the desired metrics, but it's hard to know the right solution without more information about the problem."

Far too many interviewers hear that as weasel-wording, and simply disengage. It's even worse when the interviewer thinks they're asking a clear question about python syntax. It takes a high level of self-awareness to know that you might be the problem when you're the interviewer.

An experienced interviewer might engage with that, but many folks don't have the patience to listen to an unexpected response, nor the respect for the candidate to give them the benefit of the doubt. As I said, this pattern isn't theoretical. I've been on the interviewer end of this kind of pattern many times before.

> My main point is that the company's interview process is flawed.

Agreed on this.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#354

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #156

_f1dq wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. To the extent that I've participated in the hiring process (both as an IC and a manager), 80% of the interview is assessing culture/personality/ethic fit; that is, the basic "do I want to work with this person" question. The technical competence check is all retrospective, hearing them talk about prior projects and what the design and i…

> I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers.

Here's why https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#355

Post by roberthahn » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

gwittel wrote: post #329

roberthahn wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had good luck hiring developers by asking them to do a code review of something WE wrote (but framed as if a junior developer wrote it) This helps us look for good signal around their communication skills, mentoring skills, empathy, reasoning skills and software development skills. We used this review as a diagnostic - there are no wrong answers since we know they’re not aware of our style guide and convention…

I do something very similar and it works quite well for anyone except fresh grads (I've a different variant for them). I pose a situation and introduce the v1 code. They look for bugs and propose fixes. Then I add on a new feature, and they look for more bugs. I've maybe 4-5 levels overall each having different classes of bugs, some of more or less subtlety. Fits on one whiteboard / single piece of paper in the end.…

I _really_ like this variant! In my experience new grads never seemed to have too much trouble with the exercise but then I do explain that it’s diagnostic in nature and use the exercise to see how coachable they are.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#356

Post by disintegore » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

It doesn't help that so many concepts on CompSci show up in different places under different names and labels.

I haven't participated in technical interviews in a long time, but when I was asked to do it, I made it a point to throw as many lifelines as I could until I got a satisfying answer. For instance, if want to know if the person understands generics and they can't answer the question outright then I'll ask them about C++ templates. Similarly, if someone can't describe the term "idempotence" I'll ask them "can you tell me what makes a function pure".

Mind you those terms aren't interchangeable but if you catch one it should be trivial to understand the latter.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#357

Post by shagie » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #324

shagie wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spending five times as long to hire a senior who doesn't leave in a year or two is then a much better situation. A junior dev hire involves sifting through many resumes, and then interviews, onboarding, and then three to six months of lower productivity for the mentor. All of that represents losses against the current status quo. The current status quo is predictable. This completely discounts the "accept and renege"…

> Spending five times as long to hire a senior who doesn't leave in a year or two is then a much better situation. yes - assuming the senior also doesn't leave.

Senior devs tend to be a bit more stable in terms of "looking for a place to settle down" rather than switching jobs frequently as they've got a better idea of what they want to do and how to judge if an origination is one they want to be in.

Additionally, even if it is the case that they leave in a year or two, the org has likely spent less time on going through resumes (fewer resumes applying) and overall interviewing (individual interview may be longer, but again - fewer overall being done) and less time on onboarding.

You're likely able to have productive contributions from a senior in 3 months rather than 6-12 months for a junior.

So even if the senior does leave in a year or two - the org is still better off trying to hire a senior than a junior.

---

It really boils down to "if you can't compete with big tech salaries, there likely isn't a way to hire a junior dev that will be a net positive to the organization.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#358

Post by dannyw » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

c4m wrote: post #326

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

This is super interesting! With a traditional interview and job offer process, a new employee can ramp up without worrying their job is on the line. And I think this is important, because it can take awhile to ramp up to full productivity, which can be stressful if the new employee feels like they're being evaluated already. Where I've worked, my new manager told me "Hey, welcome to the company. Please feel relaxed a…

If you are a semi-experienced software engineer and haven't been deliberately lying during your interview, you shouldn't really worry about getting fired.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#359

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

rhacker wrote: post #251

jaaron wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. As a software engineer for 20+ years, I've talked with my sister, who is an ER doctor about this often. Most folks outside of engineering think our interview processes are crazy. Keep in mind, there's significantly more training that goes into the medical field, so there's more emphasis on the institutions. Where did you go to school? What hospitals or facilities did you work with? Your resume and references spea…

Can you imagine? Hi I'm Ed Barns I'm here for the interview of ER Physician. QUICK Put on your scrubs we've got a patient here with a bone dangling out of his arm. No you don't understand I'm just here to interview. THIS IS THE INTERVIEW HURRY UP.

Some nursing boards pretty much have this; you get to a room with a medical actor that's behaving like a patient with X issue and you have to handle the situation.

It's also a big part of residency (having to treat patients with diminishing supervision from senior doctors). So it's not that far fetched.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#360

Post by twiddling » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

taftster wrote: post #244

digitalmouse wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

reminds of of the systems design interview I had with Google, the interviewer had his webcam off, barely spoke English and had me trying to make diagrams of system architecture in google docs with no reference of what he was actually looking for it was like sitting in a confusing nightmare for an hour

This is when you open a can of BS and just spray it everywhere. Go for the most esoteric and ridiculous design that you can. Elaborate on the minutia of your design at the finest level. Puff your feathers and flaunt your genius. Both bore and impress your interviewer at the same time.

"If you can't dazzle them with facts, baffle them with bullshit"