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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this deserves the downvotes it is getting simply because there is some truth to the comment. A good friend of mine worked with a young developer recently who was excited about what he was able to generate with a single npm command. When my friend, who has been writing software longer than this guy has been alive, calmly pointed out that the npm command had just generated 400 files and thousands of lines…

I'd be mildly ticked-off, too. The senior guy was being an ass.

I can easily imagine how it went down.

"Wow! I can do so much with so little!"

"Everything you just generated is wasteful and meaningless."

The right way is to encourage that enthusiasm and guide them toward doing more useful work with the same power they just discovered.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#332
post #105
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

Reading all of these accounts of horrors in HackerNews I feel my idea of creating a "TOEFL for Developers" would be perfect.

(I am hesitant to describe my idea, but WTH, I'm currently not in a position to act on it, and they say ideas are dime a dozen so...):

For those of you for whom English is not your first language, you surely know what TOEFL is: Test of English as a Foreign Language. The private company provides a test where they evaluate a person for proficiency on different sets of English skills: Reading, Writing, Speaking, general comprehension. At the end of the test they give you a score for each of those and then a general score.

Now, the nice thing about the TOEFL score is its reputation: When you are going to study into a University (from Oxford to Liverpool, from Harvard to Queensland), if you are not a native English speaker, the university asks you to take a TOEFL (or equivalent) and get a score higher than X. As long as you provide that score, the university won't ask any questions. They don't doubt your English proficiency skills.

I want to do something like that but for development: Sure, University thought you CS101, CS201, etc. But what companies are looking for are specific skills (similar to say, https://sijinjoseph.netlify.app/programmer-competency-matrix... or https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/131XZCEb8LoXqy79WWrhC... ). These very concrete skills that can be concretely measured.

I want this becase I've been dealing with recruiting, interviewing and also being interviewed for most of my career. And in my experience setting up a "recruiting wheel" in a company or startup is very painful. Most developers don't know how to perform interviews. Or don't care (who has time for that?). As an Engineer manager, having to comb through 400 resumes a week is time consuming and unproductive.

So I imagine a scenario where, there is this proverbial "Full Stack Developer" certification authority which is independent, very reputable and unbiased: They won't tell me if X or Y developer will make it into my team. They will tell me how does the person score in "Algorithms/Data Structures" or "Micro Services development" or "Frontend development" and then I will choose whether I want to hire them or not (according to my current requirements). That way, I only have to do a culture-fit interview and that's it.

In the past I have dealt with "Sourcing Agencies" that try to do something like that: They do the 1st technical interview, and they say that there will be alignment to what I want. But that was not the case: They send me 2 candidates and get very surprised when I reject one and not the other. And I feel our objectives are not aligned, so everybody is frustrated. Moreover, I don't want to have to deal with hiring agencies. And paying 1 to 3 salary months is too fucking expensive.

Now, as a candidate/developer: I would love to have a "TOEFL" like certificate that I can show, with my proficiency. That way, I can "look for a job" passively. I don't have to be making countless of code interviews showing one time after another what I know. I only do it ONCE for an authoritative company, and everybody else can check my qualifications there.

Companies like Microsoft or TripleByte have tried to do something like that, but the problem is again that they do other things: Their interests clash. Why would I trust LinkedIn? That's why TOEFL monetization make sense: The candidate has to pay for it.

I am aware there are some certifications: Oracle whatever, Microsoft whatever, AWS whatever. But those are either too specific/niche (WebLogic Server 12c administration exam) or they are only a "badge" (AWS Cloud Engineer) that doesn't tell you that much.

There is opportunity here for disruption. And I know that the problems that I've faced are faced by countless of other CTOs/Technology Heads.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#333
Because we interview for CS and not software engineering? Software engineering is at the very least requirements understanding, customer empathy, resolving ambiguity collaboratively, and on a more technical side class/interface design, maintainability, tradeoffs, testability and finally the implementation. What we test for is 3 leet code in an hour and oh asking too many questions shows lack of independence! Worse interviewers often have a different interpretation of interactions as they present the candidate at the hiring committee!

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#334
As software developers/ engineers we love talking about this issue... but realistically it's just a symptom of the growth in our industry.

Anyone who pretends you can accurately assess a candidate in 3 hours worth of interviews is lying to themselves. The only real way to know if someone is good is to work with them and get to know them over a long period of time. I wrote a little bit about this here: https://jonpauluritis.com/articles/a-better-way-to-hire/. Practically speaking this means the best way to recruit is via "networking," but networking takes a lot more time than posting a job advertisement and having someone solve some leetcode questions.

(related article: "Why Aren't Developers Paid MORE" https://jonpauluritis.com/articles/why-aren-t-developers-pai...)

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#335

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

30 minutes? Not even an hour? I'm a senior and I need an hour to work my way through deep questions (not just technical) to see what real-world experience the candidate has while simultaneously judging cultural fit. I prefer an hour and a half to allow time for the candidate to feel more comfortable and come up with their own questions.

I definitely agree with the taking risks part. Hiring should not be about the most talent or experience, but the best mix of qualities (including their own personal goals) to fit what you're hiring for.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#336
post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

[deleted]

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#337

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

This is something that I have never quite understood. In most of the places where software engineering is big, you have very loose labour laws. But companies treat hiring as if employees are signing on for life (compare this to how they treat downsizing). It is very strange, particularly given: the fact that almost no-one thinks current hiring practices are perfect, and the difficulty in producing a process that actually works (again, it seems odd that people hiring are engineers but take an approach to hiring that is very precisely wrong, rather than roughly correct...this confusion between precision and correctness seems common with engineer backgrounds).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. To the extent that I've participated in the hiring process (both as an IC and a manager), 80% of the interview is assessing culture/personality/ethic fit; that is, the basic "do I want to work with this person" question. The technical competence check is all retrospective, hearing them talk about prior projects and what the design and i…

You know, I was nodding my head in agreement as I read this when something occurred to me. This all requires that the interviewer be willing to interact deeply with the candidate. Our profession has a (well deserved, I think) reputation for having a high percentage of people who really don't like interacting with others on a peer level. Is it likely that a large part of the problem is that we have people doing interv…

> if your typical response to talking to another technical person is immediately to try to one-up them

The psychological reality behind all this is even worse.

The interviewer is not looking for new colleagues, he is looking to improve his own self-esteem and rank. The reward for rejecting a candidate is a feeling of superiority and an appearance of being irreplaceable.

The interviewer and the candidate have opposing goals, and the interviewer can randomly change the rules at any point.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#339
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. As a software engineer for 20+ years, I've talked with my sister, who is an ER doctor about this often. Most folks outside of engineering think our interview processes are crazy. Keep in mind, there's significantly more training that goes into the medical field, so there's more emphasis on the institutions. Where did you go to school? What hospitals or facilities did you work with? Your resume and references spea…

One key difference is licensing. As a physician you have to take the USMLE Step 1,2,3 and then potentially other board certifications. We engineers don't have any of that.

FYI 'real' engineering (electrical, mechanical, civil etc. ) do have certification exams in USA and many other countries

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand how different bits of the stack fit together? have they ruled out network issues before digging into the code? etc. I don't know. I think I'm pretty good at troubleshooting on the job (since I can be the one to troubleshoot & solve the trickier bugs) but thinking about doing it in an inter…

I've done these sorts of questions before and the point (more me at least) was two-fold: 1. Do they understand the basic machinery of a web application (assuming the job is about building web applications)? 2. Can they take a vague problem ("the page is loading slow") they might get from an actual non-technical user and drill down to identify what precisely the issue is? Is it DNS? Is it a proxy server/load balancer?…

I'll take high level architecture design and software coding problems over live debugging any day. Which is kind of my point. This kind of session is going to potentially weed out candidates with different strengths & a good team is a mix of a variety of strengths.
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