A Compass for the Politics of Collapse • Hacker News Board

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#41

Post by lostandbored » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #23

This is a Very Online taxonomy; I don't think it incorporates the vast majority of normal, not particularly Online people who are aware of these problems but aren't spending most of their energy on them. The vast majority of people are fundamentally outside of this taxonomy because even if they are thinking about ideas related to "collapse", it's as a problem someone else is going to solve for them. The biggest chall…

Yeaahhh, as interesting (and mildly funny) as it is, this a very online taxonomy.

Don't really care much for it.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#42

Post by blix » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

Hokusai wrote: post #25

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #21

Notably missing Doomer Optimists who accept the reality and inevitability of collapse, while viewing it as an opportunity for localist, agrarian communities to rise in the wake.

"Cottage-core: the fetishization of bucolic and isolated life is once again proposed by cottage-core as an escape from declining modernity. " From the article perspective they are in the pessimist section. As they are pessimist avoid improving the current state.

But Cottage-core is in the aesthetic section, not the pessimist section. I also know quite a few people with this general perspective and I don't think any of them would use that label. (To reference another comment; this seems like a Very Online label)

Ultimately this perspective doesn't neatly fit into any of the pidgeonholes the author has created. This is a problem with trying to categorize large numbers of humans into sequential, unrelated categories.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#43

Post by chobeat » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #17

Not sure which buckets I fit into. Maybe a pessimist bucket that isn't listed. Maybe a matrix of longterm near linear decline with localized event driven rapid declines. Probably a degrowth variant since I do believe there's a minimum level of consumption tied to each person and that incremental cost has a ceiling when talking about sustainable population levels. Probably a combination of apocalyptic and cottage for…

It's a compass, it's a tool. You give it a purpose

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#44

Post by danjac » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

Hokusai wrote: post #25

ReadEvalPost wrote: post #21

Notably missing Doomer Optimists who accept the reality and inevitability of collapse, while viewing it as an opportunity for localist, agrarian communities to rise in the wake.

"Cottage-core: the fetishization of bucolic and isolated life is once again proposed by cottage-core as an escape from declining modernity. " From the article perspective they are in the pessimist section. As they are pessimist avoid improving the current state.

Reminds me of the term "cosy catastrophe" (coined by British SF author Brian Aldiss):

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CosyCatastrophe

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#45

Post by nosianu » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

Telemakhos wrote: post #16

margalabargala wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What spike in crime? All data I've seen has shown marked, consistent decreases in crime. Could you link the data you refer to?

Here's some data from Chicago: https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/1_PDFsam_D... Murder in particular is way up.

That is one city with its own very specific problems in a large country. Are we picking only the data that fit our narrative now? What about all the other big cities?

Starting point for an example: "Reported violent crime rate in the United States from 1990 to 2019" -- https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-...

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#46

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

edrxty wrote: post #33

CalRobert wrote: post #10

If you find the collapse of human civilisation interesting, you might enjoy: It Could Happen Here - podcast by Robert Evans exploring a US decaying in to warring states and dissolving https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-307... Dark Mountain, a twice-yearly collection of short stories and poetry on themes of collapse and ecocide. https://dark-mountain.net/

It Could Happen Here was pretty haunting. Some of it was hand wavy but a lot felt borderline prophetic. I should caution people here though. Going down this rabbit hole is not at all good for your mental health and in parallel, much like a particular Big Short scene, glorifying any of the potential scenarios here is glorifying death and suffering on a level never seen before. We have a lot of problems to solve over t…

[deleted]

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#47

Post by tharne » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #23

This is a Very Online taxonomy; I don't think it incorporates the vast majority of normal, not particularly Online people who are aware of these problems but aren't spending most of their energy on them. The vast majority of people are fundamentally outside of this taxonomy because even if they are thinking about ideas related to "collapse", it's as a problem someone else is going to solve for them. The biggest chall…

> The biggest challenge in climate change (for example) is that it's simply happening on too long a timescale for the average person to pay much attention to it.

I disagree. This may be a problem, but I think the bigger problem is one that was described in a post on HN a few weeks back. Namely, that most of the folks advocating for action and sacrifice on climate change are themselves unwilling to lead by example, e.g. stop using air travel, give up or very sharply reduce automobile usage, etc.

This leads a lot of people to either 1) Write the whole thing off as some BS cooked up by elites or; 2) conclude that no one, including those who claim to care most about the issue is actually going to do anything about the problem.

You can't have Congressmen and Senators calling climate change an "existential threat" while they're hopping on a commercial airliner every week to fly back home from DC. While these folks may be correct in their assessment of climate change, their own behavior completely destroys any credibility they may have had on the issue.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#48

Post by chobeat » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #23

This is a Very Online taxonomy; I don't think it incorporates the vast majority of normal, not particularly Online people who are aware of these problems but aren't spending most of their energy on them. The vast majority of people are fundamentally outside of this taxonomy because even if they are thinking about ideas related to "collapse", it's as a problem someone else is going to solve for them. The biggest chall…

I don't know about you, but most of the things in the article shape my real world: XR blocks my street, Exxon pollutes my air, cyberpunk shapes the aesthetic of art around me, corporate advertisements determine what is consumed by people I meet with. How is it online? And even if it were online, why do you treat as less real? Now most of the societal interactions happen online

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#49

Post by thriftwy » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

How about Soft Landing expectation?

Neither optimistic nor pessimistic, there will be a lot of issues in many countries, a lot of people will have to live with worse life quality (as they already do since 1970s in many places), but the life will generally go on as usual. Expect a rebound in 2nd half of XXI century.

Collapse will not likely happen, but even if it did, there's the experience of collapse of USSR which offers a lot of insights. The chief of which, humans can take a lot of beating before they actually start to die.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#50

Post by gspr » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

papito wrote: post #30

Oh, this is nice. While the mortals are talking about surviving a self-inflicted societal collapse, the trillionaires are busy building penis rockets, fighting taxes tooth and nail, and building doomsday bunkers. Ironically - in New Zealand, a place where society will most like be one of the last ones to fold. Good bye, and thanks for all the fish!

How is it ironic to be building doomsday bunkers in the society most likely to be one of the last to fold? It seems like exactly the place to build one, if one were looking to.