A Compass for the Politics of Collapse • Hacker News Board

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#31

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

chobeat wrote: post #18

JPKab wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on "Right Wing", and with "denier" in the sense of climate change, but alt-right has devolved into a meaningless label for anyone to the right of Mao. I was called "alt-right" by an AI ethics researcher because I asked her if she had looked at the actual data on police shootings/crime and argued with her response that the data released by the FBI UCR (victim reported crime data) was fabricated/fraudu…

if people misuse of a specific term in a casual context made the term meaningless, we wouldn't be able to speak of politics, science or any other specific field. Alt-right has a very specific meaning in politics and political analysis, regardless of how it's used in a casual context

"Alt-right" isn't any sort of established term of art; it was first coined in a casual context less than a decade ago. I've seen some researchers use it as a kind of synonym for "white identity politics", but it seems to me that they're doing so specifically because of the casual usage, not because the term is particularly useful to them.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#32

Post by wayoutthere » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

abduhl wrote: post #14

margalabargala wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What spike in crime? All data I've seen has shown marked, consistent decreases in crime. Could you link the data you refer to?

I think it’s currently understood that crime rates in aggregate are down because people stayed home during the pandemic. So, burglary/mugging/drug dealing and other crimes that mostly take place when people are out have fallen. On the flip side, crimes driven by annoyances (for lack of a better term) or “fun” have gone up: murders, domestic violence, car jackings, commercial theft below the local prosecution limit, e…

Where I live, the murders are about social media and “the rap game”. It used to be about drugs but weed is legal now and there are enough junkies to go around.

The entire criminalization of drugs was invented by the Nixon White House as a pretext to oppress black people and “hippies”. There are official tapes and transcripts where it’s all described in great detail so this isn’t a conspiracy theory.

The war on drugs had the side effect of obliterating the credibility of the police. Because its motivations were so blatant and its punishments so harsh, the greater public (yes this includes white people) see the police as causing more problems than they solve. In my city, murder clearance rates are well below 50% because nobody talks to the cops. They’re not going to solve any more of them by having more cops on the street; we have to think about policing differently because the war on drugs has distorted it beyond recognition.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#33

Post by edrxty » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #10

If you find the collapse of human civilisation interesting, you might enjoy: It Could Happen Here - podcast by Robert Evans exploring a US decaying in to warring states and dissolving https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-307... Dark Mountain, a twice-yearly collection of short stories and poetry on themes of collapse and ecocide. https://dark-mountain.net/

It Could Happen Here was pretty haunting. Some of it was hand wavy but a lot felt borderline prophetic.

I should caution people here though. Going down this rabbit hole is not at all good for your mental health and in parallel, much like a particular Big Short scene, glorifying any of the potential scenarios here is glorifying death and suffering on a level never seen before.

We have a lot of problems to solve over the coming years but resisting this train of thought becoming mainstream in the algorithmic feeds that define our future is one of them. This can only have strictly negative consequences of the "self fulfilling prophecy" variety.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#34

Post by throwaway34241 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

I’ve found Ray Dalio to have some of the most interesting takes on this subject. [1] [2] [3] He’s the (retired) founder of the world’s largest hedge fund and he tries to examine these topics through economic and historical lenses, which seems like as good an approach as any.

He also explains a lot of macroeconomic material in a way that isn’t very jargon heavy (which can sometimes be hard to find, at least for the schools of thought popular among people who do it professionally).

[1] https://www.principles.com/the-changing-world-order/

[2] https://economicprinciples.org/downloads/bw-populism-the-phe...

[3] generally anything at his site economicprinciples.org, or his book on historical debt crises at https://www.principles.com/big-debt-crises/

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#35

Post by abduhl » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #29

cratermoon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What spike in crime? Well, see, that's the subtle part. Is there really a crisis-level crime wave (in the US)? There was a sharp decrease in crime in the initial months after lockdowns went into affect, but a spike in gun purchases. As such, homicides, which in the US are overwhelmingly committed with guns, are definitely up. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/30/us-crime-rat... But it's not anywhere near…

How about ignoring the fact that a far higher percentage of shooting victims survive gunshot wounds now than they did in the 70's, which has a significant impact on lowering the number of gun deaths, while increasing the number of victims with lifelong impairments from their wounds. Or the correlation/causation fallacy of assuming that new gun purchases (primarily in the suburbs) drove the spike in murders because it…

The ivory tower, academic egghead activists were elected by their own kind (ivory tower, egghead activists) via social media and mass media. Like most things related to minorities, it doesn’t matter what the actual minorities want (they’re brainwashed and have “internalized” their status or whatever) but rather what the majority can get using the minority group as a tool. In this case, it’s budgetary control via so-called police reform/defunding.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#36

Post by Hokusai » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

It's interesting but not insightful. Anyway, I would find more conducive to stop talking nonsense about collapses and focus on the many technologies that are being developed.

We got a million times better at creating vaccines. AIDS vaccine is on the way. Clean technologies are growing exponentially and a future of clean-air cities is approaching fast. Working from home thru video conferences, I saw that in sci-fi when I was a kid, is a day to day reality.

We should be building a better future instead of focusing on extremist views of the world. It was fun to read, it would make no sense to give it too much weight.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#37

Post by majormajor » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #29

cratermoon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What spike in crime? Well, see, that's the subtle part. Is there really a crisis-level crime wave (in the US)? There was a sharp decrease in crime in the initial months after lockdowns went into affect, but a spike in gun purchases. As such, homicides, which in the US are overwhelmingly committed with guns, are definitely up. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/30/us-crime-rat... But it's not anywhere near…

How about ignoring the fact that a far higher percentage of shooting victims survive gunshot wounds now than they did in the 70's, which has a significant impact on lowering the number of gun deaths, while increasing the number of victims with lifelong impairments from their wounds. Or the correlation/causation fallacy of assuming that new gun purchases (primarily in the suburbs) drove the spike in murders because it…

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/instead-of...

We ALSO shouldn't ignore that behind the black murder rate is a pre-defund-the-police failure of the police, as a whole, to prioritize crimes against black victims in the same way they do against white victims.

"Get rid of police" can be a naive reaction to the newly-enabled broader exposure of police racism (violently racist cops are no new surprise to minorities!) at the same time as "actually, the police are good" can be a naive counter-reaction.

(And there are some very good ideas in the details of the general "defund" proposals - sending non-lethally-armed responders to handle non-violent interactions or traffic stops, say, is a good way to avoid needless escalation into someone's death, while in no way requiring us to get rid of cops that would investigate shootings.)

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#38

Post by orhmeh09 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #23

This is a Very Online taxonomy; I don't think it incorporates the vast majority of normal, not particularly Online people who are aware of these problems but aren't spending most of their energy on them. The vast majority of people are fundamentally outside of this taxonomy because even if they are thinking about ideas related to "collapse", it's as a problem someone else is going to solve for them. The biggest chall…

Do you have sources supporting your statements? They may sound common sense to you, but there is considerable ongoing scientific inquiry into people’s attitudes today, their sense of responsibility, and their sense of agency. Maybe you’re right, but I would go to the effort of reviewing the research and giving links before making assertions.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#39

Post by wayoutthere » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

grive wrote: post #20

j_m_b wrote: post #4

The language of this article is biased and portrays viewpoints using various leftist tropes such as use of "deniers", "right wing", "alt-right". The article is little more than summary of fictional portrayals of future society. Absolute drivel.

[flagged]

There is no “alt-right”; they’re just the far right. “Alt-right” was just cool new branding for the same ethnonationalist crap that’s always been around.

Re: A Compass for the Politics of Collapse

#40

Post by exolymph » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

orhmeh09 wrote: post #38

ivraatiems wrote: post #23

This is a Very Online taxonomy; I don't think it incorporates the vast majority of normal, not particularly Online people who are aware of these problems but aren't spending most of their energy on them. The vast majority of people are fundamentally outside of this taxonomy because even if they are thinking about ideas related to "collapse", it's as a problem someone else is going to solve for them. The biggest chall…

Do you have sources supporting your statements? They may sound common sense to you, but there is considerable ongoing scientific inquiry into people’s attitudes today, their sense of responsibility, and their sense of agency. Maybe you’re right, but I would go to the effort of reviewing the research and giving links before making assertions.

This is a casual discussion website, comments often relate personal opinions.