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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#291

Post by dasyatidprime »

Apocryphon wrote: post #223
binarytox1n wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People here are suggesting credentialing as if it will remove interview requirements rather than simply add a new hoop to jump through. I do not believe required credentialing solves the interviewing problem at all. You see it today with the certifications that already exist in the market. They aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Anyone can trivially study and pass the certification tests and still never have…

Just turn the Leetcode-style data structures/algorithms segment into the basis of this credential, so it at least doesn't have to be repeated ad nauseam each time an applicant interviews with a different company, despite having the least relevance.

Triplebyte was trying to do this a while ago, weren't they? My last observations from a year and change ago suggested they were running into what might have been signaling equilibrium issues / risk aversion, but I'd be curious if there's other perspectives around.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#292

Post by kodisha »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #242
mikepurvis wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. To the extent that I've participated in the hiring process (both as an IC and a manager), 80% of the interview is assessing culture/personality/ethic fit; that is, the basic "do I want to work with this person" question. The technical competence check is all retrospective, hearing them talk about prior projects and what the design and i…

You know, I was nodding my head in agreement as I read this when something occurred to me. This all requires that the interviewer be willing to interact deeply with the candidate. Our profession has a (well deserved, I think) reputation for having a high percentage of people who really don't like interacting with others on a peer level. Is it likely that a large part of the problem is that we have people doing interv…

Not sure about English, but in my language we have a saying "The fish stinks from the head"

I can tell you, with quite substantial sample size from me directly and from people I deeply trust that every time we encountered an interview like this, we later found out that the company culture was really bad.

Those are not the kind of people you want to work with.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#293

Post by shagie »

Clubber wrote: post #113
readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

>it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired Every state in the US is an "at will" state, meaning a company can fire you with no reason as long as it isn't discriminatory towards a protected demographic. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/at-will-emp...

(Montana isn't at will)

Even with at will, the company can get into difficulty with unfair dismissal and other issues.

The few times I've seen someone fired (and fired fired not PIP or layoff) have been for clear and undeniable issues. The "your work isn't up to performance standards" without a PIP falls into the rare bucket (and more likely at the small companies than the larger ones).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#294

Post by krony »

Coding interviews should just:

- review your recent resume

- have some conversations around coding topics that dive in enough to know if you generally know what you're talking about

- focus on things you really expect them to do on the job

- if you really love giving algorithm riddle programming tasks, only use them on recent university grads who are used to such things. it has zero (ZERO) usage for experienced devs in our industry

- basically much of the US already interviews conversationally with little or no coding exercise. but for some reason big tech and the valley fail to change (which is funny since they are usually on cutting edge of other aspects of our industry)

TL&DR: don't do live coding interviews, they are a waste of everyone's time

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#295

Post by sumtechguy »

pdimitar wrote: post #137
sumtechguy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to move there. Even if you put it up front in your resume (they usually only read it 30 mins before they interview you). None of these companies want to hire from another state. As you can not 'start tomorrow'. Even though they will have these positions open for a year or more. Be up front you about what you are doing. They are going to think 'he is going to jump at any time'. Be willing to stay there awhile…

> You will burn bridges and the community of devs is small there, and they talk. You've hit the nail on the head here and this is my main worry. I've been much more selfish lately (last 3-ish years) and I know I definitely did burn some bridges but I can't make myself care very much -- I am 41 y/o and at one point participating in a one-sided "exchange" of trying to appease while mostly humiliating yourself becomes i…

The consultant thing is usually a matter of budget. Hiring someone is the personal budget that has had an increase of just enough so everyone does not flee and zero real room for a new head. Yet a consulting budget is from a 'different bucket' and can usually scale up and down quickly. Those are taxed at different rates and depending on their accountants how it will work out.

For your last Q I would say a lot of the same points still matter. They are going to want someone 'local'. Someone who can come in on a moments notice when they are in the thick of it. Also keep in mind a business is not programming. I would suspect what you are really asking is 'how do I sell things'. That is a much different topic. But targeted advertising, cold calling, trade shows, emails to former and clients and colleagues. It may be worth looking into hiring an advertisement firm for some small ideas. Do what you want your customer to do and hire an expert. If you do not have the cash for that you are going to have to do it yourself. Your personal network is probably your best bet for starting to grow your business network. My dad a former insurance salesman spent a lot of time in bars selling and meeting people. They had hundreds of hours of training they took to be any good at it. It may even be worth getting a short part time job as a salesman to get the idea of what to do. Think of it as just as there are jr devs you are jr salesman. But keep in mind, there are several types of sales. Those that sell themselves (they were already going to buy it, it is just from who that matters). Those where you need to work the sale. This is the harder type. You have to basically sell yourself to them. This is either showing them they have an existing need that is not being fed, or faking it by 'creating' a need they did not know they had. Another way is to associate yourself to one of the consultant groups out there. They take a cut but can help with lead generation.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#296

Post by majormajor »

JohnBooty wrote: post #220
rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects, coding knowledge tests, etc. Very small sample size but we've had good results skipping coding exams entirely, and simply talking through some scenarios with candidates. - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand…

I've generally found more people flunk this sort of interview than flunk a whiteboard one.

Namely, if you've had only boring, uninteresting jobs so far, you might not have a truly interesting "tricky technical challenge you solved," and similar gaps around the other questions. Like, you can't name many of the ways a big, high-traffic site might slow down, because the internal tools websites you work on don't need caching or proxies or load balancing or...

Whereas tossing an algorithm question or two at them too to see if they can figure it out at least potentially screens for potential in a way this conversation doesn't.

So I always make sure we do both on interview loops, because I don't want to reject you just for lack of good past jobs, OR because of lack of studying algo problems recently (the good senior candidates crush the conversational one even if they're rusty on the algorithms).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#298

Post by majormajor »

NationalPark wrote: post #289
vlovich123 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand how different bits of the stack fit together? have they ruled out network issues before digging into the code? etc. I don't know. I think I'm pretty good at troubleshooting on the job (since I can be the one to troubleshoot & solve the trickier bugs) but thinking about doing it in an inter…

Surely an interview scenario is far less stressful than an actual outage though? Your performance in the real one is a lot more important for your job/career than the interview is.

Not necessarily. People put a lot of stock into interviews because they could affect not just today, but years of their future. Whereas nobody really expects to get fired if they can't resolve the outage in 45 minutes (instead of 3 hours), say.

Especially if you're junior and your current job sucks and you've never (yet) passed an interview for a better job.

This is counter-productive, but the brain doesn't always work how you'd want it to.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#299

Post by Apocryphon »

dasyatidprime wrote: post #291
Apocryphon wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just turn the Leetcode-style data structures/algorithms segment into the basis of this credential, so it at least doesn't have to be repeated ad nauseam each time an applicant interviews with a different company, despite having the least relevance.

Triplebyte was trying to do this a while ago, weren't they? My last observations from a year and change ago suggested they were running into what might have been signaling equilibrium issues / risk aversion, but I'd be curious if there's other perspectives around.

That's what Triplebyte is attempting to do, yep. But it does seem like a considerable challenge and they're still figuring out their product. Also feels like for an industry-scale problem like this, it would require a consortium of the major employers (not just FAANG but large companies from Microsoft to Intel to Oracle and beyond) to hash out some sort of standard, not to mention a body representing the engineers (if not a SWE union, at least something like the IEEE/ACM) and the academic institutions that provide the education.

One wonders what the history of how the credentials in medicine or law were forged.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#300

Post by darepublic »

Not sure but.. some people I know who work in less well paying office type jobs (perhaps with a large data entry component), see the trend and think they want to get into programming. But they just don't enjoy it whatsoever. Their preferred approach is going to the cheapest college course they find, passing the courses by the skin of their teeth and then showing up with diploma in hand at a job interview. But unfortunately that process doesn't leave them able to contribute much and the employers know it.
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