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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#221

Post by mbesto »

jelling wrote: post #67
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

> Reddit’s hiring process converted me from a fan of the site into someone that thought the entire organization was second tier - which obviously it is in terms of monetization - but also in how they treat people compared to the FAANGs.

And from a completely non-technical persons perspective Reddit is incredibly disorganized at the executive management and corporate level. The amount of turnover, controversy, business model revamps, etc. for a 16 year old company with the hype they have is unique and unprecedented. It's not surprising whatsoever that their hiring practices are similarly disjointed.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#222

Post by burnished »

EvilEy3 wrote: post #163
jelling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

> I have over 20 years of programming experience, am a founder, and have worked for multiple venture backed startups. Do you want a pat on the back or something?

The implication is that they aren't new and they've had ample opportunity to be humbled and grow. That their perspective is the result of experience. Thats all.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#223

Post by Apocryphon »

binarytox1n wrote: post #96
Nbox9 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be happy if some organizations started accepting a credential in lue of a coding interview, and just did a design/architecture and cultural interview.

People here are suggesting credentialing as if it will remove interview requirements rather than simply add a new hoop to jump through. I do not believe required credentialing solves the interviewing problem at all. You see it today with the certifications that already exist in the market. They aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Anyone can trivially study and pass the certification tests and still never have…

Just turn the Leetcode-style data structures/algorithms segment into the basis of this credential, so it at least doesn't have to be repeated ad nauseam each time an applicant interviews with a different company, despite having the least relevance.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#224

Post by jph »

mateo411 wrote: post #190
serf wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i've had similar experiences over the phone. "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending -- source of data in Python?" me : "What kind of data? What is it used for? How should it be represented afterwards?" Silence on the other end , followed by "Well that's up to you." I then fumble out a few ways to do it (verbally), to a recruiter that doesn't seem to understand anything that i'm say…

> "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending -- source of data in Python?" The answer to this question is to use a generator. If you don't know this, then both people are going to wish that they had that half hour of their life back. Is this a good question? If you want somebody with a lot of Python expertise, then knowing about generators is a good thing. If I was interviewing a candi…

How about asyncio streams.py?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#225

Post by mateo411 »

gabereiser wrote: post #55
commandlinefan wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That all makes sense, and it bothers me, too, but they do hire somebody eventually, which implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment they're unfamiliar with and people they just met.

>implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes… This is more a random fluke as much as sampling bias. Akin to someone either getting lucky or someone who is coming from a very similar environment. This isn’t a measurement that guarantees someone is competent, rather it’s a guarantee that someone is coming from just as incompetent an environment as you have.

You know the company is on a good trajectory when the new hires are a little less incompetent than the past hires.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#226

Post by digitalmouse »

move-on-by wrote: post #213
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

> In an environment I am unfamiliar with I had an technical interview with a company early last week, we did a shared session using VS Code. The interviewer wrote the function signature, and I filled out the implementation. I did great, according to the interviewer, and moved to the next set of interviews. The next interviewer, which turned out was also technical, ended up opening up a shared Google Docs to write cod…

reminds of of the systems design interview I had with Google, the interviewer had his webcam off, barely spoke English and had me trying to make diagrams of system architecture in google docs with no reference of what he was actually looking for

it was like sitting in a confusing nightmare for an hour

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#227

Post by ghaff »

jethro_tell wrote: post #195
ghaff wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone is equally good of course but I would be very cautious about making hacking since 12 a requirement for a developer job. It certainly doesn't have its equivalent in any other branch of engineering or indeed just about anywhere else other than the arts.

And yet finding someone competent for the job is like a needle in a hay stack. Having a base of expected/certified knowledge would take a lot of that away.

And yet every other technical field which has no expectation that this has been a passion since childhood and applicants should have personal projects in the field manages somehow to hire people.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#229

Post by jaaron »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #182
rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

Do medical doctors face this? Their work is confidential as well - patient data is highly confidential.

No.

As a software engineer for 20+ years, I've talked with my sister, who is an ER doctor about this often. Most folks outside of engineering think our interview processes are crazy.

Keep in mind, there's significantly more training that goes into the medical field, so there's more emphasis on the institutions. Where did you go to school? What hospitals or facilities did you work with? Your resume and references speak more strongly.

Other hurdles in software engineering hiring:

- It's both a technical and (often) a creative field.

- Most work requires teams to complete and there's very little insight into who contributed what into a project.

- You don't have many of the signals from other fields, such as published papers, law cases, or hard numbers such as sales, certifications, etc.

Long story short: we don't have good mechanisms within companies to measure engineering productivity, let alone measure programmers outside of an institution.

I'm reminded of Steve McConnell's intro to "Software Estimation":

"Meanwhile, the typical software organization is not struggling to improve its estimates from +/-10% to +/-5% accuracy. The typical software organization is struggling to avoid estimates that are incorrect by 100% or more."

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#230

Post by Apocryphon »

dragonwriter wrote: post #185
Nbox9 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be happy if some organizations started accepting a credential in lue of a coding interview, and just did a design/architecture and cultural interview.

> I’d be happy if some organizations started accepting a credential in lue of a coding interview Sure, but what credential exists that both is reliable enough to support that use and would remain reliable enough once it became used that way, even in a specific narrow subfield of development?

A majority of Silicon Valley-style tech is now using data structures/algorithm interviews, so it already is a de facto credential.
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