If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
211–220 of 586 posts
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or they just hire the guy they knew through their network. A lot of "how to beat the tech interview process" advice is about how to break down the door with a battering ram when you don't have the key.
This is basically the advice I give everyone I know when it comes to things like this, "If you're going through the front door, you've already lost." My experience has been that this applies to recruiting, hiring, BD, sales, fundraising, etc. Anywhere that there's a systemic principal-agent problem.
I've heard that advice in various forms but I must say (anecdote incoming) - in my own 30 year career, the best jobs I've ever had were the random ones that I just applied for and the worst ones were the ones that somebody I knew from before recruited me in from outside.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#213I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…
I had an technical interview with a company early last week, we did a shared session using VS Code. The interviewer wrote the function signature, and I filled out the implementation. I did great, according to the interviewer, and moved to the next set of interviews.
The next interviewer, which turned out was also technical, ended up opening up a shared Google Docs to write code it. I asked if I could just share my screen in my own editor, but they couldn’t give me permissions to do that. I was given an extremely vague question. When I asked questions, he told me to stop because he was holding out for next iterations of my implementation (again, in a Google Docs). Given no structure and an absurd environment, I completely bombed it. And to top it off, instead of getting an email saying they were not interested in me, they just ghosted me all together. A complete waste of time. I wish them luck in their endeavor to find the best engineer to write code in Google Docs, since that is apparently what they are interviewing for.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apprenticeships in a trade tend to be such that with sufficient hard work and determination, anyone can fill the trade requirements. The problem solving skills of software development don't seem to fit that model - there are some people, no matter how much you train them, don't seem to be able to move beyond "follow instructions" to "give tasks" when it comes to developing software. The second part is that the trade…
> Apprenticeships in a trade tend to be such that with sufficient hard work and determination, anyone can fill the trade requirements. The problem solving skills of software development don't seem to fit that model - there are some people, no matter how much you train them, don't seem to be able to move beyond "follow instructions" to "give tasks" when it comes to developing software. The trades face the same challen…
The "skilled trades" with hvac, electrician, plumbing, carpentry and such where the apprenticeship is more appropriate do have that issue again.
While it is often argued and parts of it have been refuted - The Camel Has Two Humps ( http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf ) is applicable here.
There are people, for whatever reason, can't accept a different mental model than what they've got in their head. Software development is about twisting how you think to that of how a computer works.
I've presented this very light model of "levels":
A junior follows instructions
A mid completes tasks
A senior solves problems
There are people who plateau at each level and never go beyond that for whatever reason. In many cases it is a failure of putting the proper problem solving / learning skills in place to be able to think in a way that isn't the easy way.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.
I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts if they would subject themselves to this sort of professional board and licensing for software. There's clearly a pre-determined set of information and skills that are fundamental enough to be tested, but it is also fairly creative and subjective at the end of the day.
With software you can write a TODO app with a million lines of code or 7.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…
In a cut-throat environment, where 10% of people are PIP'ed, it is expected: your senior colleagues are not going to help you, will lead you down a wrong path, etc. That way, the tribal knowledge will be with them, and they can outshine any new employee. In your interview case, they should have given you hints, even if they want to not hire you later.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#217Now I do regular practice problems so I'm always ready. I actually recommend this.
It looks something like this:
Sunday - Stack | Queue | Priority Queue (Heap)
Monday - String | Math
Tuesday - Tree | Dynamic Programming
Wednesday - BFS | DFS
Thursday - Graph
Friday - Linked List
Saturday - SabbathRe: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#218So we fight against increased barriers to entry like credentials (but that Stanford/MIT degree is still a golden ticket into the interview). We try to give as objective an interview as possible, meaning it’s explicitly technical, rather than just talking about past projects open endedly and going with the feeling you get about the candidate.
I’d bet if we collectively decided not to try to be a meritocracy, we could make tech interviewing a lot easier, but I wouldn’t like that. I came from a nontraditional background too. I only got in the door because whiteboard style interviews let me demonstrate what I knew despite my total lack of credentials.
We suck at being a meritocracy, but I’m glad we try to keep the barriers low and unbiased. I bet we’re better than most other fields that pay this much.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do medical doctors face this? Their work is confidential as well - patient data is highly confidential.
Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#220It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…
Instead we have to simulate work samples
through whiteboard coding, pair programming
sessions, take home coding projects, coding
knowledge tests, etc.
Very small sample size but we've had good results skipping coding exams entirely, and simply talking through some scenarios with candidates.- give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand how different bits of the stack fit together? have they ruled out network issues before digging into the code? etc.
- "tell us about a tricky technical challenge you solved"
- ask them what makes a for good code review on a pull request / what makes good code review culture in general
- ask them about things the team did well at their previous role(s) and things they'd improve, and how they'd improve upon them. (not looking for "correct" answers or opinions - but they should have some opinions)
- what are some technologies/frameworks/languages you'd like to learn next? again there's no "right" answer. but if they don't have any - red flag, right?
- etc
This of course presumes that some minimal screening has been done to make sure they're actually a software developer; an initial Fizzbuzz screen etc.
At each step of the way we discussed relevant technical bits in a natural and conversational way. For example if they mention that they "optimized" or "refactored" or "fixed" something at a previous job then naturally we ask them for the details and usually wind up swapping some stories as well.
If they passed this conversational interview, we usually extended an offer to them within 24 hours or less. Sometimes we waited longer and they got snatched up by another company.
Of course this sort of interview doesn't tell you about their work ethic and how reliable they are and so on. But, neither does a lengthy coding assignment-based process either. And the "conversational" method gives you a sense of how they'll fit in with the team.
Considering how quickly good candidates are snapped up, doing "fast" interviews like this can be a big advantage for your hiring efforts. If worst comes to worst, and they don't work out, you can part ways. It's not like either side is locked into the employment agreement. Depends on your specific locale a bit, of course -- and at my current employer we're helped by being a remote team, so it's not like we're asking folks to relocate or anything.