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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#201

Post by jethro_tell »

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #139
jethro_tell wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In part because you have to jave enough sr people able to mentor. There's not a great industry framework. As a plumber, you pay your apprentice usually 60% sr/journyman salary with a 5% increase every 6 months to match the value of the skill up. There are also industry standard, industry funded classroom settings, that teach things like building codes and industry standards and some adjacent trade craft. Instead you…

> In truth, it wastes the talent you've built to not be aggressively increasing their comp to match the skill increase you're providing. The issue is that we don't quantify what hiring someone actually costs. We're willing to spend $20k on finding a candidate for 160k yet the people in the same position are sitting at 120k and getting a 3-4% raise. The new person needs time so expect at least a month of training, yet…

yes, the JR to SR path should be a methodical planned progress with expectations of big raises as they skill up.

I'm fine with an annual cost of living adjustment once I get to a SR level because I'm not increasing skill at a rapid pace, I'm exercising my skill in the expected way. For a Jr path, that doesn't make sense. getting a cost of living adjustment and being twice as good as you were last year means you're a flight risk and that will cost the company more than just paying people what they are worth.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#202

Post by UncleOxidant »

allo37 wrote: post #160

Is this an American thing? Or maybe just a non-embedded systems thing? I live in Canada and was looking for a job recently...got two offers! One was just a casual chat about my experience, the other was a casual chat + take-home exam, which took about 3 hours. Ater reading all these scary whiteboard interview stories on social media I studied up on programming puzzle-type questions...was a bit of a let-down, honestly…

My experience with the embedded world is that the engineers and managers working in that field tend to be older. They're from the era when it was common to get a job after a casual chat. About how old was the manager who hired you?

I got a contract gig with an embedded development house a few years back after a couple hour interview - more of a chat. The guys hiring me were in their early 60s.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#203

Post by kevinventullo »

danjac wrote: post #100
commandlinefan wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That all makes sense, and it bothers me, too, but they do hire somebody eventually, which implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment they're unfamiliar with and people they just met.

Or they just hire the guy they knew through their network. A lot of "how to beat the tech interview process" advice is about how to break down the door with a battering ram when you don't have the key.

I was a hiring manager at Facebook, and even when there was someone we specifically wanted to hire, they still had to do the same coding interviews that a new college grad has to do.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#204

Post by bryanrasmussen »

commandlinefan wrote: post #37
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

That all makes sense, and it bothers me, too, but they do hire somebody eventually, which implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment they're unfamiliar with and people they just met.

I have done that in the past, and I've failed miserably in the past as well.

Am I on the top of my game right then and not stressed about anything and the questions out of the random million possible questions that could come up are ones that I just happen to have had on my mind recently? Then I ace the interview.

The last time that happened it was in a big international consulting company, they then put me through 5 other interviews afterwards, each one telling me I would hear something back in the next couple days.

The last one I got told couple more days, they didn't call me back for nearly two weeks. Then they call: Hey Bryan, we would complete the offer process now hope you're still interested?

Uhm unfortunately I got an offer last week for a 6 month consulting project, sorry but I had to take it because they said they couldn't wait to see how this turned out.

on edit: clarification.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#205

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

I think that a lot has to do with his #2 point: Software is BROAD.

I've changed jobs twice in the last 6 years and in none of the interviews was I asked any coding questions. There were sometimes broad questions about design and concepts "how would you handle situation X"), but no actual coding or whiteboarding. In fact, going back 15 years to the start of the previous job, I don't recall coding questions then either. They were more concerned about my general capabilities and knowledge of useful algorithms that I would use on the job than the actual code.

But then, I'm mainly an embedded systems developer. Sure, I do the odd webapp or desktop application or tool, but controlling hardware is where most of my time is spent. Maybe in this field there's less of a culture of "interview by whiteboard?" Or perhaps it's because I was applying to higher level team lead positions that were more concerned with architecture & design than the framework of the month?

Or is it mainly the web guys (admittedly the largest section of the pie) that are being asked the odd algorithm & whiteboard questions?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#206

Post by myvoiceismypass »

ghaff wrote: post #30
nthj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of companies. https://www.levels.fyi/charts.html#

So a handful of well-known Silicon Valley-ish companies and then you have Comcast, which is probably as good an example as any of a well-known technology-oriented but fairly mainstream company outside of Silicon Valley, and they're paying a senior engineer about $150K.

Yes, but Comcast is in Philly and has a much lower CoL than CA & NY

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#208

Post by kevstev »

dotancohen wrote: post #178
Nbox9 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be happy if some organizations started accepting a credential in lue of a coding interview, and just did a design/architecture and cultural interview.

What is the interview process like for architects? Lawyers? Surgeons?

I can't speak for architects, but there is a very high bar for licensing for them. For lawyers, I had a friend at a top tier firm that interviewed with another and had to do a full doc review- essentially doing several hours of actual work. They were moving to a small boutique firm outside of "big law" so this may have been somewhat outside the norm.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#209

Post by vmception »

edoceo wrote: post #172
vmception wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about tech interviews is a signal for what happens inside the company, aside from you having the dual role of giving tech interviews while you forgot to factor that into your sprint planning You’re making the same mistake at vetting them that they’re making at vetting you

The interview is signal from the actual company - it's definitely got some information about what's inside.

You are simply determining that you are okay with false negatives

Which is exactly why they do irrelevant interview brainteasers as well

This problem is a two way street in the tech sector, in case anyone wanted to fix it. The candidates alone are making the same mistake and bringing it to the company

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#210

Post by rhacker »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #155
danjac wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they just hire the guy they knew through their network. A lot of "how to beat the tech interview process" advice is about how to break down the door with a battering ram when you don't have the key.

This is basically the advice I give everyone I know when it comes to things like this, "If you're going through the front door, you've already lost." My experience has been that this applies to recruiting, hiring, BD, sales, fundraising, etc. Anywhere that there's a systemic principal-agent problem.

This is fairly true. The easiest side-door if anyone is wondering is a recruiting firm. At least with those there is already a somewhat simple contract in place that helps get rid of poor people.

I am wondering if the entire interview process should just be pay them for 2 weeks and see if they stick.

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