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How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

foreignpolicy.com

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Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#21

Post by olalonde »

naner wrote: post #19
buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

As bad as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still generally BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other 'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line that is China's per capita growth This always seemed like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local groundw…

> Well, it turns out that overworking people and polluting is still bad behaviour.

Fast-forward to year 2085

> Well, it turns out that asking people to do mechanical work 30 hours a week and dumping CO2 in the atmosphere is still bad behaviour.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#22

Post by technoslut »

viae wrote: post #15
olalonde wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a selling point. Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs than the Chinese? > If I pay premium dollar for quality and durability, I would rather that support l…

> Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs than the Chinese? Because the consumers of every nation on earth, deep-down, are superficially patriotic. We don't want to recognize that the global economy is post-nation state. We want to pretend that when we buy an American company's products it is, American. Just as if we decide to buy an Italian sports car we want it to be Italian. Co…

I don't agree with the 'superficially patriotic' remark, at least in regards to Americans. I believe that after seeing the effect of all these manufacturing jobs being closed down, many would opt to pay a higher price knowing that it would save jobs.

I don't necessarily blame companies for these emotional ties. There was a time when those ties really meant something.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#23

Post by cageface »

curt wrote: post #8
martythemaniak wrote: post #2

I think it's unfortunate that Apple chooses to not build it's hardware in the US, or model its manufacturing on Germany's successful mid-size firms. Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a selling point. If I pay premium dollar for qua…

Even if Apple wanted to the regulations surrounding manufacturing, especially on a large scale are crazy. Can't tell you how many operations are moving overseas not because of the labor costs but because of the bureaucracy, paperwork, EPA, and regulations in the US.

The endgame of all this could be that no country anywhere can enforce any environmental or labor laws because corporations will just move somewhere more desperate for jobs.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#24

Post by w1ntermute »

buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

> When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and operation of every vendor.

It's one thing to have occasional issues of the sort. It's a completely different matter to be so bad at preventing these problems that you're ranked dead last amongst international IT companies in China. Apple's famous perfection clearly only applies to things that make it money:

> Ma Jun is one of the leaders of the Green Choice Alliance, a coalition of 36 Chinese NGOs that tracks pollution reports among international brands operating in China. In January, they released a report focusing on global IT companies that ranked Apple dead last among 29 companies in responding to inquiries about pollution and workers' safety. Last winter, Ma met with Jia and helped him pen a letter about working conditions and medical compensation to Apple CEO Steve Jobs. It went unanswered. So did a second letter.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#25

Post by curt »

cageface wrote: post #23
curt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Apple wanted to the regulations surrounding manufacturing, especially on a large scale are crazy. Can't tell you how many operations are moving overseas not because of the labor costs but because of the bureaucracy, paperwork, EPA, and regulations in the US.

The endgame of all this could be that no country anywhere can enforce any environmental or labor laws because corporations will just move somewhere more desperate for jobs.

It's not the laws themselves (with some exceptions) but the paperwork required to comply. For example Singapore has many of the same laws as the US but they really focus on streamlining the bureaucracy so it's not as heavy a burden.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#26

Post by cageface »

curt wrote: post #25
cageface wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The endgame of all this could be that no country anywhere can enforce any environmental or labor laws because corporations will just move somewhere more desperate for jobs.

It's not the laws themselves (with some exceptions) but the paperwork required to comply. For example Singapore has many of the same laws as the US but they really focus on streamlining the bureaucracy so it's not as heavy a burden.

How specifically do they go about this? Bureaucracy is notoriously resistant to streamlining. Does having a more authoritarian government make this easier?

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#27

Post by delackner »

technoslut wrote: post #22
viae wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs than the Chinese? Because the consumers of every nation on earth, deep-down, are superficially patriotic. We don't want to recognize that the global economy is post-nation state. We want to pretend that when we buy an American company's products it is, American. Just as if we decide to buy an Italian sports car we want it to be Italian. Co…

I don't agree with the 'superficially patriotic' remark, at least in regards to Americans. I believe that after seeing the effect of all these manufacturing jobs being closed down, many would opt to pay a higher price knowing that it would save jobs. I don't necessarily blame companies for these emotional ties. There was a time when those ties really meant something.

In this case "many" means a minority. The majority have voted with their dollars over the past several decades and overwhelmingly chosen products that are manufactured wherever is cheapest.

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#28

Post by delackner »

technoslut wrote: post #17
olalonde wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple makes and builds high-end products and has the fat margins that goes along with it - instead of outsourcing all manufacturing to China, it could choose to build everything in the US, employ the locals and use that as a selling point. Why do you assume Americans are more deserving of Apple's manufacturing jobs than the Chinese? > If I pay premium dollar for quality and durability, I would rather that support l…

I do think that Americans are more deserving of products being produced here. I've always felt (maybe others do not) that you give back something to where you grew up or the society you are apart of. I see it no different in this case. Sony has done the same in Japan and I respect them more for it. There are great benefits to the US market and many, such as Apple, have taken advantage of it. They also take advantage…

Wait, what? Sony has mostly abandoned their Japanese production of Televisions. They are made in China. Maybe you're thinking of Sharp?

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#29

Post by r00fus »

w1ntermute wrote: post #24
buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

> When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and operation of every vendor. It's one thing to have occasional issues of the sort. It's a completely different matter to be so bad at preventing these problems that you're ranked dead last amongst international IT companies in China. Apple's famous perfection clearly only applies…

cite?

Re: How Apple conquered China and learned to think like the Communist Party.

#30

Post by forensic »

naner wrote: post #19
buddylw wrote: post #13

I am no fan of Apple - mainly for their closed architecture, but I am also a cold-hearted economist when it comes to these types issues and this article is a bit of a one sided hit piece. I would like to throw in a few counterpoints so we can all maintain a proper context. 1.) When companies become as large as Apple and begin purchasing products from vendors. It is not possible for them to guarantee the safety and op…

As bad as a 3rd world outsourced job is to us 1st worlder's it's still generally BETTER than what they would have otherwise. In fact Apple and other 'outsourcers' are the one and only reason for the breath-taking trend line that is China's per capita growth This always seemed like a bullshit argument to me. So it is marginally better to work 16 hour days in terrible conditions while dumping chemicals in local groundw…

We can't save the world. Even if our entire country voted for it, we could not save the Chinese from their own policies.

They are adults living in a sovereign nation; they are responsible for their own working conditions.

I'm not going to feel white-guilt for stuff that happens in a foreign country over which I have zero control.

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