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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#111

Post by ghaff »

jgwil2 wrote: post #91
readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

> Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. How is hiring a mediocre developer worse than hiring a charlatan?

I assume the logic is that, at many/most places, the charlatan may actually be let go if they really don't work out whereas the person who is just "OK" will be allowed to cruse along indefinitely. Most companies aren't pro sports teams.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#112

Post by [deleted] »

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

[deleted]

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#113

Post by Clubber »

readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

>it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired

Every state in the US is an "at will" state, meaning a company can fire you with no reason as long as it isn't discriminatory towards a protected demographic.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/at-will-emp...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#114

Post by ravroid »

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I think it's because software varies vastly in complexity and spans many domains. Every software engineering role may use a generalized skillset to a degree, but I feel like there can never be one all-encompassing bar that can effectively cover the requirements of every role.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#115

Post by habibur »

throwaway1492 wrote: post #5

A recent comment from reddit: This year I became a co-owner of the company that worked at for the past three years. It's a small development and consulting company and we're currently struggling to find new developers. At the same time, my girlfriend is trying to get her foot into this field. Since she's interested in a completely different tech stack than what we use, hiring her through good ol' nepotism is not goin…

The best and most practical comment so far.

That's what my experience says, including the conclusion.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#116

Post by Clubber »

afpx wrote: post #83
readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

What's the "modern coding interview" trying to achieve? The other day, a guy showed me a 30-line convoluted, deeply-nested, redundant, and contradictory conditional statement and then rolled his eyes at me when I took longer than 5 minutes to parse it. Maybe I'm slower, but my quality is just fine.

Sounds like the purpose of that interview was to stroke the interviewer's ego. You should have asked him if that was his code, or was that code in production, then rolled your eyes back and left.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#117

Post by dnautics »

0xffff2 wrote: post #104
dnautics wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overworking, but probably not underpaying. I remember hearing about how much a SpaceX intern was payed and being shocked (it was several X my scientist pay)... Then she told me how many hours she was working, and it made some more sense (but it still seemed high -- scientists often also work 80+ hours)

I work in the same industry as SpaceX. They are in fact well known for pay that would be average-at-best in a sane work environment coupled with an absolutely insane work environment. When I was in college, my only goal was to get a job at SpaceX. After getting a few internships and talking to some people in the industry, my only goal now is to never be so desperate for work that I accept a job at SpaceX. Their inter…

cool! thanks for the datapoint.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#118

Post by Clubber »

wil421 wrote: post #21

Any advice for someone trying to get back into web based software engineering? I’ve spent the past 5 years implementing off the shelf solutions that enterprises use. Lots of API work, light web dev with some AngularJS but mostly scripting using JavaScript. I wouldn’t be able to pass a whiteboard interview. My salary is above $100k and I could probably find a job doing what I’m doing for $150k or higher. My next choic…

>I wouldn’t be able to pass a whiteboard interview.

What the people who insist on giving these interviews don't realize is they are extremely hackable most of the time. The people who give them often aren't bothered to make up their own tests, so they go to the google and type "whiteboard interview questions for bla bla." I suggest you do the same and study up.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#119

Post by slumdev »

binarytox1n wrote: post #96
Nbox9 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be happy if some organizations started accepting a credential in lue of a coding interview, and just did a design/architecture and cultural interview.

People here are suggesting credentialing as if it will remove interview requirements rather than simply add a new hoop to jump through. I do not believe required credentialing solves the interviewing problem at all. You see it today with the certifications that already exist in the market. They aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Anyone can trivially study and pass the certification tests and still never have…

Adding a new hoop is the desired effect, and it does solve at least one problem. If you're at a tech company or some other org that interviews well, you might not have seen it yet.

Many devs are not good at their jobs. They mean well, but they can't solve basic problems without looking at stack overflow. And by "basic", I don't mean leetcode, I mean iterating over a collection.

> Anyone can trivially study and pass

Yes! At that point, I would know that the guy sitting next to me did at least some amount of studying of the fundamentals.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#120

Post by sumtechguy »

pdimitar wrote: post #87
slumdev wrote: post #4

I've never seen this question posted by anyone who had either a CS degree or any nontrivial amount of experience. It might be hard to get a FAANG job, but it's not hard to find a $100k legacy code janitor job at any old Fortune 1000 in a flyover state.

It's not hard, you say? Give us some pointers then? I'd appreciate a legacy code janitor job for a few years while still collecting $10k a month. I need the break from stress.

You have to move there. Even if you put it up front in your resume (they usually only read it 30 mins before they interview you). None of these companies want to hire from another state. As you can not 'start tomorrow'. Even though they will have these positions open for a year or more.

Be up front you about what you are doing. They are going to think 'he is going to jump at any time'.

Be willing to stay there awhile. But be warned some of these places there may be one to two 'big companies' that hire there (and if they do not hire you are SOL). There may be some small startups here and there. So plan on that. There may not be much to choose from there for you. It is why many move away from those areas. So if you are 'lucky' enough to get into one of the companies do not plan on jumping around a lot. You will burn bridges and the community of devs is small there, and they talk.

Be willing to dig into some seriously legacy code. "oh we still use sourcesafe and vb5". The Joel test is a good indicator of how strong they are. "oh we buy the best for our devs" and the computer on existing devs desks is some beige box from the late 2000s with a CRT.

Set your pay expectations much lower than what you are used to. Had one I was looking at, I was one of 3 people who applied. He passed me over because 'I was not in the same state'. I had 5 years 'full stack' exp on the exact type of system he was working on. After a bit of back and forth they wanted to pay nearly half of what I was looking for. Which was not terribly out of line for that area. Another dude thought he could snag me for 1/4th what I wanted. These guys can be cheap. They have a product someone tinkered together years ago. But they do not have enough income to really justify any sort of real work. So they do what they can and usually just farm it out to some consultant group.

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