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Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

newyorker.com

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Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#111

Post by dev_tty01 »

mdorazio wrote: post #67
dev_tty01 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You asserted that there was no benefit to getting the vaccine for previously infected. I pointed you to a reference that shows that that is not true. The original article to which we are all responding pointed out the minuscule levels of risk associated with getting the vaccine. With respect to autoimmune disease, I think we are seeing that long covid is becoming a significant health concern among even healthy young…

I would like to point out that long-term effects are a possible outcome in many types of flu, not just covid ex. [1][2]. Given the combination of relatively short timeframe for covid studies, the unknown complications of living in lockdowns, and the general "don't care" attitude toward these effects in previous flus, the whole "Long Covid" story at least seems rather overblown. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41…

As someone who is close to a person who suffers from an infection triggered autoimmune condition that has led to severe and long term neurological effects, I would agree that conditions similar to long covid have been occurring for quite a while. However, just because they have been ignored does not mean they aren't real and that the issue is "overblown." While I take no joy from the suffering of others, having more attention being paid to this very real and at times devastating condition is one of the few upsides of the virus.

Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#113

Post by pandaman »

noduerme wrote: post #101
LurkingPenguin wrote: post #42

> For some people, it’s not so much the known risks that have them worried as the unknown. They ask, What if the mRNA vaccines alter our DNA, threatening our health far in the future? Will they affect our bodies in other, as yet undiscovered, ways? After all, some say, this is brand-new technology, and the F.D.A. has only fully approved the Pfizer vaccine. > As it turns out, though, mRNA technology isn’t especially n…

There's one really simple, mechanical principle at work here. If you get an mRNA shot your body will generate a snippet of spike protein which your immune system will learn to attack and destroy. If you get a live sars2-cov virus, your body will also generate that protein, but orders of magnitude more of it and without automatically ceasing generation once the original mRNA breaks down... because the virus generates…

It's not really that simple. First of all, "the orders of magnitude" claim is not supported by anything I've seen, care to provide your source? Then there is an issue of what cells are affected. We know that the virus binds only to a certain receptor, which exists only on some cells. What about the vaccine's "lipid particles", do they bind to receptors at all? I also could not find any reliable information on these particle mechanism of action, which I imagine is natural as this is the trade secret of the vaccine manufacturers so we don't know if these affect the same cells the virus does. I for one rather sacrifice a few billion of epithelial cells to the virus than 1/1000th of this number in the brain neurons to the vaccine because neurons are probably not going to regenerate while the epithelium constantly regenerates.

Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#114

Post by CharlesW »

vldmit wrote: post #28

You can't persuade skeptics by not addressing (simply omitting) some most important concerns, namely: - Role of age, fitness and comorbidities in risk/benefit analysis - Lack of trust in institutions (suppression of alternative views; capture/corruption) Another question is who New Yorker can reach, I won't be surprised that ~95% of their audience are already vaccinated. And remaining 5% holdouts are well-informed an…

> You can't persuade skeptics by not addressing (simply omitting) some most important concerns…

You're making a couple assumptions here which don't hold true in practice. (1) That "skeptic" concerns are uniform. Those may be your important concerns, but they're not for others. (2) That you'll be able persuade "skeptics" by logically addressing their concerns. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#115

Post by boyleingpoint »

dev_tty01 wrote: post #94
boyleingpoint wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a study out of Israel that say the exact opposite https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-... This isn't something that can just be hand-waved way

No, the Israel study is vaccinated vs previously infected. The study I pointed to was vaccinated and previously infected vs only previously infected. I was responding to an assertion that vaccination offers no benefit to the previously infected. The article you reference confirms the point I made. Here is the quote from the article: "Giving a single shot of the vaccine to those who had been previously infected also a…

I thought you were talking about only previous infection versus vaccinated, my mistake

Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#116

Post by boyleingpoint »

honkycat wrote: post #85
boyleingpoint wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it's possible that people could be generally pro-vaccine and be sceptical of the covid-19 vaccine? You're trying to lump people who have legitimate concerns about the covid-19 vaccine in particular with the vaccines cause autism/magnetic vaccines crowd, and it's very dishonest. This is not some monolithic movement, and I disavow the people who are anti-vax in principle. I'm rooting for the covid vaccines…

You pretend to have a "reasonable" hesitation for the vaccine, despite overwhelming evidence of the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine, especially in contrast to the effects of Covid-19 itself. So I ask, what will it take for you to change your mind? What is the evidence you are waiting for that does not already exist?

If it was demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that it would be more detrimental for me to be infected than to be vaccinated (taking into account my personal risk factors) and it conferred better long term immunity than a natural infection, I would change my mind.

Given that as of September Israel will only consider people fully vaccinated if they've had a booster injection, I don't believe this criteria has yet been met.

It's not even like an annual flu shot at this point, as people who were considered fully vaccinated just a couple of months ago now need further boosters.

At this stage it looks like the taxpayer will be footing the bill for twice-annual booster shots for everyone. This is just not sustainable

Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#117

Post by Marsymars »

boyleingpoint wrote: post #116
honkycat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pretend to have a "reasonable" hesitation for the vaccine, despite overwhelming evidence of the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine, especially in contrast to the effects of Covid-19 itself. So I ask, what will it take for you to change your mind? What is the evidence you are waiting for that does not already exist?

If it was demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that it would be more detrimental for me to be infected than to be vaccinated (taking into account my personal risk factors) and it conferred better long term immunity than a natural infection, I would change my mind. Given that as of September Israel will only consider people fully vaccinated if they've had a booster injection, I don't believe this criteria has yet be…

> At this stage it looks like the taxpayer will be footing the bill for twice-annual booster shots for everyone. This is just not sustainable

Isn't it? Not speaking to its wisdom, but it seems entirely sustainable from a financial perspective - some napkin math suggests that the all-in costs of that frequency of vaccination would be <1% of the federal budget of a typical developed country.

Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#118

Post by noduerme »

pandaman wrote: post #113
noduerme wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's one really simple, mechanical principle at work here. If you get an mRNA shot your body will generate a snippet of spike protein which your immune system will learn to attack and destroy. If you get a live sars2-cov virus, your body will also generate that protein, but orders of magnitude more of it and without automatically ceasing generation once the original mRNA breaks down... because the virus generates…

It's not really that simple. First of all, "the orders of magnitude" claim is not supported by anything I've seen, care to provide your source? Then there is an issue of what cells are affected. We know that the virus binds only to a certain receptor, which exists only on some cells. What about the vaccine's "lipid particles", do they bind to receptors at all? I also could not find any reliable information on these p…

From an engineering standpoint, it's just obvious that something generating a few million partial spike protein snippets originating in your deltoid muscle - even if some get into your blood or lymphatic system - is still a lot less dangerous than uncontrolled replication of billions of spike + whole viruses running wild around your body. Sure, either one could end up damaging your brain if it got through the blood/brain barrier. There's some evidence that vax-induced spike proteins have been found 30 days later in the bloodstream. Nonetheless, compared with the onslaught of that same protein you'd get from a live virus, it's the better of two bad options.

Re: Why the Covid Vaccines Aren’t Dangerous

#119

Post by pandaman »

noduerme wrote: post #118
pandaman wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really that simple. First of all, "the orders of magnitude" claim is not supported by anything I've seen, care to provide your source? Then there is an issue of what cells are affected. We know that the virus binds only to a certain receptor, which exists only on some cells. What about the vaccine's "lipid particles", do they bind to receptors at all? I also could not find any reliable information on these p…

From an engineering standpoint, it's just obvious that something generating a few million partial spike protein snippets originating in your deltoid muscle - even if some get into your blood or lymphatic system - is still a lot less dangerous than uncontrolled replication of billions of spike + whole viruses running wild around your body. Sure, either one could end up damaging your brain if it got through the blood/b…

I do not understand this standpoint. I am an engineer myself and when I compare two numbers I calculate both numbers and not just wave my hands. I don't know how to calculate either number in this case. Where did you get the "few million"? How come the vaccine causes myocarditis and thrombosis, both outside the deltoid muscle, where you said it's contained? How could the virus end damaging my brain, are you really sure there are ACE2 receptors in the brain neurons?
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