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A Science in the Shadows

washingtonpost.com

31–36 of 36 posts

Re: A Science in the Shadows

#31
post #15

The idea that we do gain of function research in urban areas is mind boggling to me. If someone told you they were working on experimental nuclear warheads, you'd think they were crazy if their lab was in a city. But they experiment with dangerous pathogens in cities of millions of people, and the janitors go home to their families every evening. I don't know whether covid escaped from a lab, and I don't know whether…

They were asked about this recently on This Week in Virology, the most important virology podcast. They said that no scientist wants to work in a remote location, they want to have a city social life. Which is why these labs are typically located in million+ cities. They also said that this is safe, because no pandemic to date started from a lab, and that eventually it will be proven that this pandemic is zoonotic to…

> They also said that this is safe, because no pandemic to date started from a lab

Not quite the same order of magnitude, but a certain reaction comes to mind:

> THAT IS NOT REASSURING! HAVEN'T YOU PEOPLE EVER HEARD OF THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE?

Re: A Science in the Shadows

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many potential right reasons. One wrong reason might be "I heard it from a Facebook group founded to spread the word that GMOs were created to make a pliable citizenry".

Isn't that equivalent to an ad hominem fallacy? The truth of a fact or the validity of an argument is independent of the characteristics of the person saying it or the forum in which it was posted.

Ad hominem is not always a fallacy.

For example, suppose I claim to have found a fatal flaw deep in the most difficult part of Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem.

If someone says that I'm unlikely to be right because my mother was a hamster and my father smelled of elderberries that would be an ad hominem fallacy.

My mother's species and my father's smell have no bearing on my mathematical claim.

However, if someone says that I'm unlikely to be right because I have not studied any higher math beyond what was covered in classes for my bachelor's degree in math from Caltech and so it is quite unlikely that I have any clue as to what is going on even on the first page of the proof let alone anywhere near the most difficult part (or could even figure out what part is the most difficult part) that would be an ad hominem but not an ad hominem fallacy.

It's not a fallacy because it is questioning whether I have the knowledge to be able to even make a valid argument about details deep in Wiles' proof. That has bearing on the likelihood that my mathematical claims are correct.

Re: A Science in the Shadows

#33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that equivalent to an ad hominem fallacy? The truth of a fact or the validity of an argument is independent of the characteristics of the person saying it or the forum in which it was posted.

Ad hominem is not always a fallacy. For example, suppose I claim to have found a fatal flaw deep in the most difficult part of Wiles' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem. If someone says that I'm unlikely to be right because my mother was a hamster and my father smelled of elderberries that would be an ad hominem fallacy. My mother's species and my father's smell have no bearing on my mathematical claim. However, if someo…

Ok, so if I removed 'fallacy' from my original question it would be more correct?

Isn't it still a logical flaw to discount a thing based on where or who you heard the thing from without assessing the validity of the thing itself?

Re: A Science in the Shadows

#34
post #15

The idea that we do gain of function research in urban areas is mind boggling to me. If someone told you they were working on experimental nuclear warheads, you'd think they were crazy if their lab was in a city. But they experiment with dangerous pathogens in cities of millions of people, and the janitors go home to their families every evening. I don't know whether covid escaped from a lab, and I don't know whether…

It's all fun and games until someone gets poked in the eye.

And tickling the Dragons Tail is great fun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

You need people that like to have that kind of fun and don't really care about the risks.

Since they are underpaid in relation to the potential risk, a risk they absolutely know but don't care about, because its so small in their own calculations, you have to give them at least some incentives.

They don't do it just for the scientific fame or out of patriotism anymore.

And they are really bright guys and girls.

At least they were told.

They were selected for it.

Oh, of course they were also selected for following the security guidelines.

They are good boys and girls.

That helps them to hide the dangers from their conscience.

And none of them would ever doubt their own calculations or that of their superiors.

Everything is under control, nothing can happen, everything is safe.

We calculated at least twice.

Until an eye is poked out.

Or a lot of eyes.

And even if something happens, who cares about a few dozen or hundred expendables at most, in the long run?

I already said, it can't be more, because of our safety routines and our extremely bright guys and girls that we need to tickle the Dragons Tail.

Setting the labs up in population centers for other reasons, lab phase two?

Now come on, that is conspiracy theory and Resident Evil Science.

“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless.” Alan Moore

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/662444-the-main-thing-that-...

But then again, only the paranoid survive and being paranoid doesn't mean, they are not after you.

;-)

Re: A Science in the Shadows

#35
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty hard to do this stuff, you need a high level biolab, not many exist afaik.

You don't need a high level biolab, a negative pressure tent in your garage and a PAPR respirator would probably work fine. Not exactly super safe, though.

No offense, but that is probably like saying you can build a nuclear reactor in your garage :) I am sure this is something like a restoftheowl thing.

Re: A Science in the Shadows

#36
post #15

The idea that we do gain of function research in urban areas is mind boggling to me. If someone told you they were working on experimental nuclear warheads, you'd think they were crazy if their lab was in a city. But they experiment with dangerous pathogens in cities of millions of people, and the janitors go home to their families every evening. I don't know whether covid escaped from a lab, and I don't know whether…

They were asked about this recently on This Week in Virology, the most important virology podcast. They said that no scientist wants to work in a remote location, they want to have a city social life. Which is why these labs are typically located in million+ cities. They also said that this is safe, because no pandemic to date started from a lab, and that eventually it will be proven that this pandemic is zoonotic to…

Technically, they are right. No pandemic ever started from a lab.

But the 2007 British foot and mouth disease outbreak indeed started from a lab. Fortunately this disease can be controlled fairly well as long as you are willing to slaughter anything in wide circles around the case clusters. So, no global pandemic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_foot-and-m...

A similar human disease would be much harder to stop.

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