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Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

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Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#101

Post by wzdd »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #99

As with most folks here I was struck by the wholesale adoption of the 'brilliance applied to clicks' meme. For those who aren't aware of it, its the 'pay the best and the brightest minds to figure out ways to get me to click on ads.' It makes for a great sound bite, but it is completely and utterly wrong. To a first approximation, these internet services don't write ad copy or design ad banners, and that is where all…

I don't understand why providing a relevant set of ads in the shortest possible time is unrelated to encouraging people to click on ads. It seems clearly to be quite closely related to me -- provide a better ad experience, and people are more likely to make use of the ads. Whether the engineers optimising the system realise this or not is somewhat irrelevant.

Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#103

Post by jrockway »

mrkurt wrote: post #88
justincormack wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of geeky people have the same issue as me with internet advertising. I dont click on ads. I do not buy any advertised products. The entire market is targetted at some average consumer, like tv ads, not at the niche markets like me. Google has apparently worked out that I might be interested in buying cameras, but I do not buy them based on adverts. The brands that I respect have characteristics that adv…

You buy advertised products, and you likely "remember" advertised products that you've seen alongside content, on TV, etc. Advertising doesn't require conscious recognition to be effective, and it's very, very difficult to avoid exposure to things that might qualify as advertisement. There's actually a great deal of advertising related research out there, which might make sense when you consider just how much money i…

I'm not sure you can make this assertion. If you still shop in stores, then yes, you probably buy advertised products. But if you just buy everything off Amazon or niche stores like Whole Foods, it's very easy to buy without having been exposed to advertising.

Also, I don't watch TV commercials and I use AdBlock, so even if I'm buying advertised products, it's not because of subconscious conditioning. It's random chance.

Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#105

Post by jasonlotito »

majmun wrote: post #86
jasonlotito wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advertising works. It works amazingly well. And I guarantee that you are successfully advertised to all the time. Advertising doesn't just occur within little pre-defined boxes on the internet. Hell, even here on HN, advertising happens all the time. Every "Show HN" post is targeted advertising. Every blog post about some interesting set of figures a start up discovered is advertising. Those interviews start ups do?…

Yea but on Facebook I'm being blindly targeted with ads where system thinks it knows what i want. but it doesn't know. If this is the same thing than facebook and goolge have very crapy advertising that don't work for me if i am targeted (I know because I'm not being "connected" to what I want), maybe only if i try to advertise something to someone But in that case it is very hard to use.

> on Facebook I'm being blindly targeted with adds where system thinks it knows what i want.

Actually, you aren't. I mean, you can be, but Facebook allows for highly targeted advertising. You can fine tune your ad to go out to a rather specific group of people. That you fall into that category means you might see those ads. Of course, some ads go out to as many people as possible.

As for how to put those ads on Facebook? It's easy. Go to to the bottom of the page on Facebook, and click on the Advertising link (https://www.facebook.com/ads/).

> If Advertisment works why I'm not being "connected" to what i want already.

That's a rather vague question. Advertising isn't just about connecting you with what you want. It's also about creating brand awareness. Advertising works. Just look at the world around you. Everytime a company reaches out with it's brand to the outside world, it's advertising. It's making to make it's message heard. How it's paying might be different, but it's looking to attract attention.

> And another thing; There is no need for Man in the Middle in advertising . All this can be automated by software and end peers.

I'm really not sure what you mean by man in the middle?

Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#106

Post by dpark »

wzdd wrote: post #85
cletus wrote: post #40

It's strange to have some moral objection to advertising because advertising is, ultimately, a form of discovery, a way of connecting people who want or need something with those that supply it. Ad revenue on the Internet, almost by definition, means someone found something they wanted. How exactly is it bad to connect people with things they want and need? The problem with advertising is when it gets too obtrusive,…

Normally I think your posts are very thoughful, but this time you are attacking a straw man. The OP clearly indicates near the bottom of the post that it's not about working for the betterment of humanity, but about work he personally finds fulfilling. Serving ads is not fulfilling work for him. Morals don't come into it.

The OP was attacking a strawman. The assertion that Google and Twitter and Facebook are not working for the betterment of humanity (or are not doing fulfilling work) because they sell ads is ridiculous. Those companies may not be working for the betterment of humanity, but the ad angle is irrelevant.

Take the following:

> Google+ isn’t about sharing cat pictures, it’s about serving ads. Twitter’s massive network of 140-character bits of information isn’t about connecting people across the globe or to view current trends in worldwide thinking, it’s about serving ads. Facebook isn’t about entertaining yourself with games or sharing interesting links, it’s about serving ads.

Replace every instance of "serving ads" with "making money", and the meaning is unchanged, but the naivete is more obvious. You can do that to the entire article.

Every business is about making money. Whether they make that money by selling ads, or selling a product, or selling a subscription, or whatever else is irrelevant. Making money doesn't mean that a business can't also be connecting people, or organizing the world's information, or curing cancer, or any other fulfilling goal.

Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#107

Post by mrkurt »

jrockway wrote: post #103
mrkurt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You buy advertised products, and you likely "remember" advertised products that you've seen alongside content, on TV, etc. Advertising doesn't require conscious recognition to be effective, and it's very, very difficult to avoid exposure to things that might qualify as advertisement. There's actually a great deal of advertising related research out there, which might make sense when you consider just how much money i…

I'm not sure you can make this assertion. If you still shop in stores, then yes, you probably buy advertised products. But if you just buy everything off Amazon or niche stores like Whole Foods, it's very easy to buy without having been exposed to advertising. Also, I don't watch TV commercials and I use AdBlock, so even if I'm buying advertised products, it's not because of subconscious conditioning. It's random cha…

If you leave your house, you're exposed to advertising. How do you even know about Whole Foods?

Amazon's entire site can be broadly categorized as advertising, some bits of it more easily than others. Companies pay for placement at retailers like Whole Foods and labels are generally exercises in advertising. Sometimes they're hilariously named, like the "No Ads" sunscreen I remember seeing a long time ago.

Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#108

Post by sidman »

brandnewlow wrote: post #84

I find that most anti-ads people change their tune when they try selling something on the internet. You get your service/product built. You make a page for it. You wait for people to come check it out. Your friends drop by. Maybe you sell a few subscriptions. Then nothing. So you start looking at ways you can spend money to get people to check out your service. You're buying ads now. And you're grateful that there ar…

Yep thats right. I actually really like ads from google because it isnt obstructive and they actually help look for what your after. I am well aware of how they get this information so they can target things to you and whether or not you agree with this is i guess a different issue which i have some thoughts on but in the regards to just the adverts discussion alone and their "intrusiveness or helpfulness" i like them and think they are useful. Interms of ad quality tho, i cant say the same for facebook ads.

Many years ago when google first started doing targeted ads on their search i didn't even know they were paid for ads. I thought it was just a new design and didn't think much more of it. Then i realised "sponsored ads" meant they where ads people paid for and thought it was a much better way of doing it then how some search engines where doing it (which at the time) was artificially putting paid ads higher in the results which obviously skewed your search result and turned any good search engine into total crap.

Also currently im in aus and just launching a product and the traction has been pretty good and we have done so by using direct marketing but trying to get to a more global audience we cant do it the same way as we are when we do it locally.

We cant hand out flyers, we can do newspaper ads, hell we cant even talk to the target people, the best we can do is use facebook twitter and tools like adwords and admob and if you use these tools right people take notice and it helps build your business. Im happy these things exist cause otherwise how the hell do we get the audience on the other side of the world if we dont have presence there.

Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#109

Post by justincormack »

mrkurt wrote: post #107
jrockway wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can make this assertion. If you still shop in stores, then yes, you probably buy advertised products. But if you just buy everything off Amazon or niche stores like Whole Foods, it's very easy to buy without having been exposed to advertising. Also, I don't watch TV commercials and I use AdBlock, so even if I'm buying advertised products, it's not because of subconscious conditioning. It's random cha…

If you leave your house, you're exposed to advertising. How do you even know about Whole Foods? Amazon's entire site can be broadly categorized as advertising, some bits of it more easily than others. Companies pay for placement at retailers like Whole Foods and labels are generally exercises in advertising. Sometimes they're hilariously named, like the "No Ads" sunscreen I remember seeing a long time ago.

Redefining everything as advertising does not work. I heard of Whole Foods through word of mouth which is not advertising in general. Sure placement can be.

Re: Why I'd never work for Google, Twitter, or Facebook

#110

Post by majmun »

jasonlotito wrote: post #105
majmun wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but on Facebook I'm being blindly targeted with ads where system thinks it knows what i want. but it doesn't know. If this is the same thing than facebook and goolge have very crapy advertising that don't work for me if i am targeted (I know because I'm not being "connected" to what I want), maybe only if i try to advertise something to someone But in that case it is very hard to use.

> on Facebook I'm being blindly targeted with adds where system thinks it knows what i want. Actually, you aren't. I mean, you can be, but Facebook allows for highly targeted advertising. You can fine tune your ad to go out to a rather specific group of people. That you fall into that category means you might see those ads. Of course, some ads go out to as many people as possible. As for how to put those ads on Faceb…

I'm not talking only about the people that put their advertisments. I am talking about both sides. why is it not working for all at the same time? People that see advertisments should see what they want to see . and not see crap. Maybe in theory this is how advertising is envisioned but it is not working in practice. Proof: I'm always seeing garbage in ads on facebook and google. therfore it is not working for all.

there can exist advewrtising as today but. there will also be this other thing that works for all, we don't have to call it advertising.

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