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Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

economist.com

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Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#251

Post by spoonjim »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #137

I sat and chatted to a homeless fella hanging out at Fisherman’s Wharf in SF for a while. He wasn’t from CA, from Missouri IIRC. He was gay, his family disowned him, he got into drugs. He got bitter, did some nasty stuff to people he hated, did some other misguided things and basically had hit rock bottom. I asked him what he thought would be needed to bring him out of homelessness and keep him inside society. He sai…

You forcibly institutionalize them in a humane and properly funded institution. The public streets are not a place for untreated drug addicts and the mentally ill.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#252

Post by poorjohnmacafee »

nradov wrote: post #232
Hermitian909 wrote: post #207

As someone who's family has been in the bay area for over a century I was disappointed the article didn't mention any of the old money families who've controlled SF politics for decades. This article[0] mentions some, though not all of the families (The Aliotos aren't mentioned here for example). While I haven't fully kept up, I know in the 90s at least a quarter of the financial district was held by two families. Th…

If SF politics is really controlled by a wealthy cabal then why have they allowed the situation to deteriorate so much? What possible benefit could they derive from homelessness, dirty streets, rampant property crime, and a dysfunctional government? The wealthy people who control NYC politics seem less tolerant of such issues.

Why assume that the ultra wealthy should care about the lesser citizens? What about all the rampant looting in NYC? I don't think they cared then.

Maybe many of them just aren't pro American. In almost every other country the media/politics carefully try to project some national pride and sense of unity; it's actually the opposite here in the US isn't it?

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#253

Post by throwawaylinux »

poorjohnmacafee wrote: post #252
nradov wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If SF politics is really controlled by a wealthy cabal then why have they allowed the situation to deteriorate so much? What possible benefit could they derive from homelessness, dirty streets, rampant property crime, and a dysfunctional government? The wealthy people who control NYC politics seem less tolerant of such issues.

Why assume that the ultra wealthy should care about the lesser citizens? What about all the rampant looting in NYC? I don't think they cared then. Maybe many of them just aren't pro American. In almost every other country the media/politics carefully try to project some national pride and sense of unity; it's actually the opposite here in the US isn't it?

Actually the US is not exceptional in that regard. Media and politicians sometimes use patriotic and popular sentiment (usually empty gestures like sport) to boost their popularity, but around the world in most western countries the tone is increasingly that they should be ashamed of themselves, of their original (secular) sin, and by no means should they take any pride or celebration in their society or its achievements.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#254

Post by bpodgursky »

srswtf123 wrote: post #238
bpodgursky wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't consider it humane to let someone live on the streets begging until they happen to die of a drug overdose. I don't care about their wishes, guided by drug addiction and mental health issues. To allow and enable this much squandering of human potential is a moral crime. Get people clean of drugs, healthy, stable, and educated. By force, if needed. If from that baseline he decides to go back into a life of drug…

This is, in all honesty, a terrifying point of view. Forcing people to take part in a society that has already rejected them and conform to someone else’s view of normal, healthy, stable, etc., that, to me, would be literal torture. I don’t consider it humane to torture people. How do you feel about all the busywork jobs that enable so so much more squandering of human potential? Should all those folks be forced to l…

We have different views about what is humane. I struggle to understand yours, but that's OK.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#255

Post by nitwit005 »

nradov wrote: post #114
DoreenMichele wrote: post #29

I will note that California seems to be America's dumping ground for the nation's homeless problem. There are also long-standing federal and state housing policies impacting San Francisco. I have no idea how dysfunctional the local city government is in this case, but there are things going on here beyond its control. It's not fair or reasonable to act like the condition the city is in is entirely due to local govern…

San Francisco has also given homeless people one-way bus tickets to get rid of them. It's a common practice in many cities nationwide. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...

As the article notes, cities usually only will do so if you both want to leave and have someone willing to take you in on the far end.

If they just wanted to get rid of people they wouldn't worry about any of that.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#256

Post by dillondoyle »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #195
dillondoyle wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glasgow sounds like they are doing great by those numbers compared to at least my city. In my city subReddit I advocated for something that sounds similar; yes housing even for addicts who will shoot up in their new place. Got downvoted. Also people bitter that rent is unaffordable for them too and said no one is entitled to free or reduced rent, since they don't get that themselves. though kind of my point housing s…

Both from reading/researching and talking with people who work directly with the homeless locally, this seems to be the crux. The really sad thing is just building the housing would be cheaper than what we're doing currently. But as soon as the city proposes it the NIMBYs come out like a hurricane refusing to allow it. Salt Lake City is an instructive example. They've made a huge impact on homelessness there with a h…

Totally! SLC looks increasingly awesome!

In Denver we have a hidden agenda ballot measure coming up that would allow residents to sue the city if they didn't clear out homeless camps in 72 hours, while also putting into law a maximum cap of only four outdoor homeless spaces (parking lots) - while allowing amenities like porta-potties!

Importantly the measure doesn't allocate money OR require these spaces. Just limits the max number the city can have ;(

funded by Republican PAC.

Oh and when a church tried to put one of the mini-camps in their parking lot in a nice neighborhood, the neighbors sued.

It would be so much cheaper just to continue buying old motels and building apartments. Give them the keys, try to help after that. Free & easy suboxone and immediate access to addiction/mental/health treatment if they want it. Naloxone on stand by with nurses in concentrated areas (e.g. an apartment block) would save a ton of money too, not to mention save lives...

https://www.denvervoice.org/archive/2021/7/14/dark-money-gro...

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#257

Post by m-ee »

nradov wrote: post #232
Hermitian909 wrote: post #207

As someone who's family has been in the bay area for over a century I was disappointed the article didn't mention any of the old money families who've controlled SF politics for decades. This article[0] mentions some, though not all of the families (The Aliotos aren't mentioned here for example). While I haven't fully kept up, I know in the 90s at least a quarter of the financial district was held by two families. Th…

If SF politics is really controlled by a wealthy cabal then why have they allowed the situation to deteriorate so much? What possible benefit could they derive from homelessness, dirty streets, rampant property crime, and a dysfunctional government? The wealthy people who control NYC politics seem less tolerant of such issues.

There’s more than one wealthy cabal. There’s the ultra rich power brokers like the Aliotos, Getty’s and then there’s the moderately wealthy people at the top of the government itself. Especially anyone associated with Willie Brown.

Government jobs are extremely lucrative, many pay six figures and opportunities to supplement with graft are plentiful. It’s a powerful club to be in and you’re potentially set for life. My spouse is a lifelong resident and remembers rushing to city hall with other hopefuls every time the city opened up applications.

The FBI is still working it’s way through the public works department with noted criminals like Mohammed Nuru and RoDBIgo Santos. I don’t really know what the Getty’s get out of playing kingmaker, but it’s pretty obvious what Willie Brown et all get out of neglecting the city and funneling money as they see fit.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#258

Post by spfzero »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #213
muh_gradle wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those that are mentally ill, and especially if they are violent, you force them to get the psychiatric help that they need. It's an unpopular opinion. But frankly it's long overdue. For those that have the option to go to shelters, receive plenty of benefits (which SF most definitely provides) but prefer to be homeless, they need to be separated from major city areas where tourists, business people, and every day…

For better or for worse, homelessness in America can largely be attributed to Regan-era changes in policy [1] that prevented people from being committed against their will to psychiatric hospitals. It was done in the name of human rights, but naturally there were ulterior motives. It's time we reverted it. About 10% of humans have been addicts across most cultures throughout most of recorded human history, and they d…

But they are making rational decisions, in their own framework. And they are caring for themselves, as much as they care. Sure we could grab them up and throw them into institutions, and call the problem solved. I’d rather see us hold them accountable for any behavior that harms others, and leave it at that. Sleep on the sidewalk? Fine. Block the sidewalk? Not fine. Litter, endanger, defacate in public? Same penalty as anyone else. Looking at them as victims is degrading to them and paralyzing to society.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#259

Post by iammisc »

Hermitian909 wrote: post #207

As someone who's family has been in the bay area for over a century I was disappointed the article didn't mention any of the old money families who've controlled SF politics for decades. This article[0] mentions some, though not all of the families (The Aliotos aren't mentioned here for example). While I haven't fully kept up, I know in the 90s at least a quarter of the financial district was held by two families. Th…

Except the aliotos cannot get elected. I'm happy to believe in conspiracies but if they control so much as you say, why can't they get their own elected.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#260

Post by srswtf123 »

bpodgursky wrote: post #254
srswtf123 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, in all honesty, a terrifying point of view. Forcing people to take part in a society that has already rejected them and conform to someone else’s view of normal, healthy, stable, etc., that, to me, would be literal torture. I don’t consider it humane to torture people. How do you feel about all the busywork jobs that enable so so much more squandering of human potential? Should all those folks be forced to l…

We have different views about what is humane. I struggle to understand yours, but that's OK.

Well, certainly we can agree to disagree.
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