Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection • Hacker News Board

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#241

Post by logicalmonster » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #235

logicalmonster wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I, personally, refuse to grant them that courtesy. Inalienable human rights are not a courtesy for you to grant.

Refusing vaccination is not an inalienable right in America - the Supreme Court has ruled many times that compelled vaccination is perfectly legal for the government. In fact the anti-vax crowd isn't particularly new in the US - it was present when both polio and MMR were being removed as common causes of death. The only real difference this time around is that anti-vax is considered a political tool by one of the US…

I'm talking about inalienable human rights. You're talking about legal rights. There's a distinction here.

And for what it's worth, I'm not concerned with legality: lawyers can and will legally justify anything they want to. I'm 100% sure that your claim about the law is correct. I'm sure that various inhuman authoritarian laws are going to be tried in America over Covid-19 and legally upheld. Politicians, businesses trying to make big bucks, and moral busybodies will never let a good crisis go to waste.

I'm concerned about morality. It is utterly reprehensible to force a human to inject something into his body against his will. No judge, law, legislature, vote, or disease changes that fact.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#242

Post by munk-a » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

logicalmonster wrote: post #241

munk-a wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusing vaccination is not an inalienable right in America - the Supreme Court has ruled many times that compelled vaccination is perfectly legal for the government. In fact the anti-vax crowd isn't particularly new in the US - it was present when both polio and MMR were being removed as common causes of death. The only real difference this time around is that anti-vax is considered a political tool by one of the US…

I'm talking about inalienable human rights. You're talking about legal rights. There's a distinction here. And for what it's worth, I'm not concerned with legality: lawyers can and will legally justify anything they want to. I'm 100% sure that your claim about the law is correct. I'm sure that various inhuman authoritarian laws are going to be tried in America over Covid-19 and legally upheld. Politicians, businesses…

Infants receive medical care while being unable to personally consent to it and that is generally accepted - ditto for adults when they have reduced cognition for a variety of factors.

I can't disagree that compelled vaccination may be personally immoral for you - but I don't think it's in any way viewed as unethical. It is accepted at a societal level even if some individuals will reject it - and, due to the widespread effects of this pandemic, I think the society we're contemplating to derive ethics here is the global one.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#243

Post by logicalmonster » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

incrudible wrote: post #212

jyounker wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unvaccinated are volunteering themselves as breeders for the next stronger and nastier version of covid, and they pose an active danger to those who cannot be vaccinated.

This is speculation. I might as well speculate that a vaccine that does not prevent infection or spread, but also puts selective pressure on the virus to escape vaccine immunity, is likely to lead to a vaccine-escape mutation when administered to a large population. This mutation then poses a risk to those who would need the vaccine that has now become ineffective. The fact that we currently see mutations coming out…

Speaking of speculation, I would strongly speculate that the vaccine will greatly increase the spread of illness.

If the vaccines dull the symptoms to the point that vaccinated people don't readily know that they're sick, then vaccinated people aren't going to be staying home when they're carriers.

In contrast, it seems far likelier that unvaccinated people will feel ill and stay home.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#244

Post by empthought » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

jart wrote: post #239

empthought wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every viral vaccine works this way, though. Because every virus works this way.

Don't most viruses just deliver mRNA that tells the cell to make more viruseses? I thought only a few, like herpes, deliver dna. That's why it can't be cured. DNA vaccines used to be commonly used on dogs and livestock to prevent things like rabies iiuc. It wasn't until these jensson booster shots that I've seen them being given to people on a large scale. Also there's a big difference when the mRNA and DNA code is e…

DNA viruses include chickenpox, whose massively successful vaccine is an attenuated virus which of course delivers “double strand helix right to your nucleus.”

(And of course smallpox was a DNA virus as well.)

Your appeal to nature fallacy is not worthy of a response.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#245

Post by munk-a » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

logicalmonster wrote: post #243

incrudible wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is speculation. I might as well speculate that a vaccine that does not prevent infection or spread, but also puts selective pressure on the virus to escape vaccine immunity, is likely to lead to a vaccine-escape mutation when administered to a large population. This mutation then poses a risk to those who would need the vaccine that has now become ineffective. The fact that we currently see mutations coming out…

Speaking of speculation, I would strongly speculate that the vaccine will greatly increase the spread of illness. If the vaccines dull the symptoms to the point that vaccinated people don't readily know that they're sick, then vaccinated people aren't going to be staying home when they're carriers. In contrast, it seems far likelier that unvaccinated people will feel ill and stay home.

That is a very real danger with constant medication and vaccination - however the observed effect has been the opposite. The lowered impact of sickness leads to shorter periods of contagiousness which has lowered the spread rate. The vaccine is effectively lowering the r-value.

A large proportion of unvaccinated persons is strongly correlated with higher case rates.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#246

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 11:04 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #177

inter_netuser wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and if virus keeps mutating... twice-annual booster shots all over the earth? I really hope we don't end up with a Marek's disease, but in humans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention

It seems more likely that after we've all developed some immunity to it and some variants, we'll have some level of resistance to what most strains bring to bear, and so milder and less lethal, like existing colds (also a coronavirus...) and flus.

[deleted]

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#247

Post by incrudible » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 11:24 AM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #245

logicalmonster wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of speculation, I would strongly speculate that the vaccine will greatly increase the spread of illness. If the vaccines dull the symptoms to the point that vaccinated people don't readily know that they're sick, then vaccinated people aren't going to be staying home when they're carriers. In contrast, it seems far likelier that unvaccinated people will feel ill and stay home.

That is a very real danger with constant medication and vaccination - however the observed effect has been the opposite. The lowered impact of sickness leads to shorter periods of contagiousness which has lowered the spread rate. The vaccine is effectively lowering the r-value. A large proportion of unvaccinated persons is strongly correlated with higher case rates.

> the observed effect has been the opposite

Did you really observe that? There's many highly vaccinated countries that have seen spikes with extremely high r-values.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#248

Post by xyzzy21 » Sat, Aug 28, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

Yeah, true that.

With natural infection you get BOTH lymphocytic memory of the disease AND antibodies to the disease. With a vaccine you ONLY get the latter. And it's the lack of that balanced duality that creates the risk of ADE or Antibody Dependent Enhancement which is far more dangerous than getting the disease naturally.

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#249

Post by jart » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

empthought wrote: post #244

jart wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't most viruses just deliver mRNA that tells the cell to make more viruseses? I thought only a few, like herpes, deliver dna. That's why it can't be cured. DNA vaccines used to be commonly used on dogs and livestock to prevent things like rabies iiuc. It wasn't until these jensson booster shots that I've seen them being given to people on a large scale. Also there's a big difference when the mRNA and DNA code is e…

DNA viruses include chickenpox, whose massively successful vaccine is an attenuated virus which of course delivers “double strand helix right to your nucleus.” (And of course smallpox was a DNA virus as well.) Your appeal to nature fallacy is not worthy of a response.

So you're saying the booster shots that deliver engineered dna via viral vectors are ok because herpes and smallpox do it too?

Re: Immunity Generated from Covid-19 Vaccines Differs from an Infection

#250

Post by ManBlanket » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

nicoffeine wrote: post #179

ManBlanket wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression anything we could learn which doesn't support a foregone hyperbolic conclusion gets vastly ignored by the media and misconstrued as fringe in the court of popular opinion. All of this started with panic-buying toilet paper and baker's yeast from the grocery stores. I'm not surprised despite a considerable majority of US citizens being vaccinated, all reporting is underscored by pandemic levels of…

Millions of people have died in less than two years, 650,000 where I live in the US. More specifically here in Florida, ICU capacity is at 93%, and cases/hospitalizations/deaths are at record highs for the entire duration of the pandemic. People are being turned away for cancer treatments because there is simply no room at the hospital. The peak of daily deaths and infections in our state is right now . This is news…

I don't deny any of this information, on the contrary I'm well aware of it. Average age 79, 99% of had a significant confounding illness. The vast majority of people who have died were already sick and living in a nursing home, literally waiting to die. Meanwhile in my state until March of last year deaths from child abuse, which has sky-rocketed at unprecedented rates world wide since the start of the pandemic, outstripped deaths from Covid. I don't understand why you and so many other are living in denial of that information. It's like you don't even care about the costs of your actions, just a the vague justification of the number of people who have died from covid. The fact is people are going to die no matter what you do about it, so not acknowledging these policies themselves have caused suffering, let alone seriously consider whether or not they were effective, is a more egregious sleight than not doing anything at all. 5 years from now people are going to look back at humanity's reaction to Covid and say, "wow, that was astonishingly stupid."