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Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

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Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#41

I've tried every psy except Ayahuasca: DMT, LSD, Bromo-DragonFLY, RC's from the 2c family, ketamine, MDMA, and so on. In each case, I had "profound" realizations during the experience that lasted a day or two, then I reverted back to my normal ways of being depressed in a messy apartment and slacking at my job. In this article, I see descriptors of Ayahuasca similar to those of other psychedelics (years of therapy in…

You're not doing the hard integration work, so the window of opportunity closes and you haven't healed.

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#42
I simultaneously believe two things are likely true:

1. Psychedelic research holds some interesting possibilities for advancing the fields of psychiatry and drug development.

2. Psychedelics are currently at near the "Peak of Inflated Expectations" in the Gartner hype cycle.

I've seen a lot of these glowing articles about Ayahuasca, LSD, and Mushrooms lately. The claims within are, frankly, out of control and verging on anti-psychiatry babble. Does anyone really believe that a single dose of Ayahuasca is "Like 10 Years of Therapy in One Evening" as stated in this article? Or that all of the people taking LSD, mushrooms, and other psychedelics before the current hype wave simply forgot to notice that these drugs were miracle cures?

I get the impression that many of these psychedelic success stories are deeply intertwined with the placebo effect. When people spend months or even years reading stories about psychedelics are miracle cures they build an anticipation that they, too, will be cured just as soon as they receive that psychedelic experience. Many of the people interviewed are investing thousands of dollars in these psychedelic retreats. They travel to distant locations where a shaman confirms their expectations that they are about to be cured. They then take a psychedelic and have a wild mental experience that confirms their expectations of something dramatic happening. For some time afterward, they are convinced they have been cured and proceed as if they are living a new life.

And hey, maybe it's working for some of them for a while! Maybe showering people in high expectations for a long time and then shocking their system with a psychedelic punch can cement those placebo effects for a while and kick-start their new look on life. But I think the hyperbole is also a strong filtering mechanism to select for those most susceptible to the placebo effect, similar to how Nigerian Prince scam e-mails are so over-the-top as to only select for the most gullible.

This would explain why past recreational users didn't notice the same idyllic cure-all psychiatric effects: They weren't primed to expect them. It also helps that many of these people are spending thousands of dollars to do this and being encouraged by people posing as professionals:

> In February 2020, Whalen spent $3,000 to attend a seven-day ayahuasca retreat at the Soltara Healing Center in Costa Rica. On four of the seven nights, she participated in ayahuasca ceremonies with 16 other participants and two shamans.

The expectations surrounding this psychedelic hype are so deep into hyperbole that they seem to self-select for people who are believers. For example:

> But Craig had read about a 2004 Johns Hopkins study on psilocybin, which is chemically similar to DMT. He found it "truly fascinating" that people could take a single psychedelic dose and rate it years later as among the most profound experiences of their lives, on par with getting married and having children.

Again, we're detached from reality. Estimates of lifetime psychedelic use in the United States approach 10% of the population. Does 10% of the population really rank their past psychedelic experiences as being on par with getting married or having children? I seriously doubt it. These sound bites are starting to feel like weird pro-drug propaganda that has latched on to a thread of hope that drugs can have positive effect.

If this is anything like past hype cycle topics, we're in for a "trough of disillusionment" where the media takes the other side and starts demonizing psychedelics. Instead of glowing stories of people being cured, we'll be getting stories about the sketchy Ayahuasca retreat operations charging people $3K and making them sick, or the people who tried psychedelics that ended up triggering extended depressive or anxiety episodes (which is a thing that happens, no matter how much anyone insists these are perfectly safe).

Take these stories with a grain of salt.

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#43

I've tried every psy except Ayahuasca: DMT, LSD, Bromo-DragonFLY, RC's from the 2c family, ketamine, MDMA, and so on. In each case, I had "profound" realizations during the experience that lasted a day or two, then I reverted back to my normal ways of being depressed in a messy apartment and slacking at my job. In this article, I see descriptors of Ayahuasca similar to those of other psychedelics (years of therapy in…

Ayahuasca is a much longer, heavier application (drink vs smoke) of DMT + MAOI, so you have had a taste. I have also had everything in your list too. D is one of the few drugs I deeply deeply fear/respect, and folks should not take this lightly. The spirit molecule is nothing to be trifled with.

Comedy Central runs a Youtube series where comedians talk about their drug trips, and the DMT ones always seem INTENSE. It seems like if you take enough you basically check out of reality for a while, wondering if that's true/what your experience was?

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#44

I've tried every psy except Ayahuasca: DMT, LSD, Bromo-DragonFLY, RC's from the 2c family, ketamine, MDMA, and so on. In each case, I had "profound" realizations during the experience that lasted a day or two, then I reverted back to my normal ways of being depressed in a messy apartment and slacking at my job. In this article, I see descriptors of Ayahuasca similar to those of other psychedelics (years of therapy in…

Ayahuasca is DMT + some maoi to prologue the effect (and make you puke). Beyond the longer trip the only more 'profound' thing is the rituals which presumably put you in a more spiritual setting. If you've done DMT and so many other psychedelics there's little reason to think you'll get that much more from Ayahuasca.

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#45

I've tried every psy except Ayahuasca: DMT, LSD, Bromo-DragonFLY, RC's from the 2c family, ketamine, MDMA, and so on. In each case, I had "profound" realizations during the experience that lasted a day or two, then I reverted back to my normal ways of being depressed in a messy apartment and slacking at my job. In this article, I see descriptors of Ayahuasca similar to those of other psychedelics (years of therapy in…

Much like if you read a good book, as time goes on you will lose the details and only recall the main gist unless you reread the book occasionally. There is concrete work to do beyond just getting in the right state of mind. It sounds like you're doing the surgery but ignoring the post-surgical physical therapy required to fully heal. I'd suggest a guide to help with the 2nd part. If you'd really like to learn some things about yourself and the experience that you'll likely forget soon after, record your entire session and rewatch it while sober. Listening to your words/questions and watching yourself will retrigger some of those experiences/lessons in much higher clarity.

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#46

I've tried every psy except Ayahuasca: DMT, LSD, Bromo-DragonFLY, RC's from the 2c family, ketamine, MDMA, and so on. In each case, I had "profound" realizations during the experience that lasted a day or two, then I reverted back to my normal ways of being depressed in a messy apartment and slacking at my job. In this article, I see descriptors of Ayahuasca similar to those of other psychedelics (years of therapy in…

I happy for you, that you've been able to access so many psychedelics that many others will never come close to, but how much therapy have you had? How many different types of therapy have you tried? How many mainstream pharmaceuticals have you tried?

By your own admission, you're depressed and are slacking at work, have you tried looking into an ADHD diagnosis?

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#47
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what friends have described, it is very different. I’ve seen it transform a number of lives, including one guy who started out with a single visit to Peru to do it and the decided to live there permenantly. I think context matters as well — these people were all doing it as a group to accomplish something with a shaman, and not just for fun at a rave or whatever.

Did he move there to continue the use? How is that different from an addiction?

You don’t need to go to Peru to get it (there’s plenty of drugs in the Bay Area). He moved there to fundamentally change his life.

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#48
post #15

I can't help but wonder what kind of world we exist in, if people are driven to drugs (not specifically ayahuasca, but also prescribed ones) just to live. The spike in mental health diagnoses and drug use ... it feels like there's something seriously wrong with the world and environment in which these people exist. The system is broken, as it were.

Or people have been taking these drugs (especially stuff like ayahuasca) for thousand of years anyway, and the rise in diagnoses is because we diagnose more now (and also have more people, live longer etc.). Most of humanity throughout history lived very stressful lives, and those with severe problems mostly just died or suffered undiagnosed rather than getting help.

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#49
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vermont's weather is similar to Northern Europe, much of the rest of North America, and Japan. What's your point?

Have you ever lived in Vermont? The cold there is very different from NYC, which is just 4 hours away.

I currently live in Vermont, just moved back here after a few years in the Bay. I strongly prefer it here than there, minus the obvious lack of infastructure, but the weather is wonderful.

Re: Some Vermonters turn to ayahuasca as a 'last resort' to heal

#50

I've tried every psy except Ayahuasca: DMT, LSD, Bromo-DragonFLY, RC's from the 2c family, ketamine, MDMA, and so on. In each case, I had "profound" realizations during the experience that lasted a day or two, then I reverted back to my normal ways of being depressed in a messy apartment and slacking at my job. In this article, I see descriptors of Ayahuasca similar to those of other psychedelics (years of therapy in…

> is it really more profound than what the other drugs do?

I suspect the drug itself is only part of the equation. A common theme among these newsworthy success stories is that the people had extremely high expectations going into their experiences. They weren't just seeking a recreational experience. They were convinced that this was the cure for all of their problems after reading a lot of glowing reports.

Some of them even paid thousands of dollars, traveled long distances, and participated in elaborate ceremonies with strong religious overtones:

> In February 2020, Whalen spent $3,000 to attend a seven-day ayahuasca retreat at the Soltara Healing Center in Costa Rica. On four of the seven nights, she participated in ayahuasca ceremonies with 16 other participants and two shamans.

> As each drank the brew, Whalen said, the healers sang icaros, or healing songs, meant to pull them deeper into the medicine.

> The woman pressed her lips against Whalen's head and inhaled deeply. "And just like that, I stopped crying ... and I knew it was over," Whalen said. "I could think of the people who hurt me; I could think of those times, all of the mistakes that I've made, and there was no longer that surge of shame and pain.

It seems the psychedelics may not be directly exerting an anti-depressant effect, but they may be pushing the right buttons in the brain to open the door for pseudo-profound experiences. Surround the psychedelic with enough high expectations and rituals and maybe it can help convince people that something amazing has happened.

But FWIW, I think most psychedelic experiences don't live up to the hyperbole in these articles or Michael Pollan books. I have a few friends who tried the Ayahuasca retreat thing. They said a lot of the people there were repeat customers back for their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th experience, hoping that maybe this time would be the magical time where they received the amazing benefits they had been primed to expect.

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