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Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine

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Re: Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine

#51
post #24
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people in high risk groups should get it, i.e., the elderly and people with weak immune systems or other health issues. Those who are strong health wise ok, they stand a good chance. That said, I am totally against this blanket insistence on passports. There may be some situations which warrant vaccinations where the subject has no acquired immunity, health workers, etc. But being denied access to govt servic…

At least places like Isreal issue you a green pass for naturally acquired immunity. In the US, people with natural antibodies who are refusing the vaccine are being fired. Basically measuring output rather than outcomes (for all you PMs out there).

That would seem to be a logical choice. I would welcome this decision in the US.

Re: Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine

#52
post #4

One can observe how this topic has become political, and is no longer scientific. Our focus and concerns are now all about existing and forthcoming restrictions and mandates for vaccinations and masks -- so much that information like this is no longer even interesting to most people. Not only uninteresting, but vulnerable to censors.

Comments like these about censorship keep coming up, yet this is the third straight day this topic is being discussed on the front page of HN.

I see the same thing on Facebook. Half of my family is still complaining about censorship and how everything is politicized while they continue to post political memes about Hilary Clinton, false or misleading information about vaccines, etc. The other half quit facebook or occasionally post family pictures.

Re: Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine

#55

There's really nothing surprising about this conclusion. Before Covid came along and the focus inexplicably shifted to antibodies-only, it was well understood that infection with a pathogen was always likely to result in better immunity than vaccination.

Except it was widely reported that natural immunity lasted 3 to 6 months and that the vaccines would last 2 years (at least Moderna), and the nuances there I think would be lost on a lay person. I even had an immunologist explain to me in detail why the immunity from the vaccine would be way stronger than acquired immunity. It doesn't really build confidence in science if, while we're finding new things, everyone pretends that the conclusion du jour was always obvious.

Re: Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine

#56
post #4

One can observe how this topic has become political, and is no longer scientific. Our focus and concerns are now all about existing and forthcoming restrictions and mandates for vaccinations and masks -- so much that information like this is no longer even interesting to most people. Not only uninteresting, but vulnerable to censors.

Uuuh, you're writing a comment about how COVID has become political on a scientific article about COVID that doesn't mention any politics.

One could believe you are actively working against your best interests here by leaving this type of comment. You'd be better at making things scientific again by behaving the one you'd like others to behave.

Re: Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine

#57
It's important to be aware of the tremendous amount of evidence from a wide body of peer-reviewed literature which supports the fact that immunity acquired through natural infection provides protection against reinfection that is at least equally effective as vaccination. This fact has been repeatedly demonstrated in multiple large scale and long term serological studies [1][2][3][4][5].

It's still an open question whether natural infection confers better protection than vaccine-induced immunity, or if some combination of the two is even better. That's why the primary pre-print cited in OP is so important [6]. It is one of the first and largest scale studies to evaluate the risk of reinfection - in the context of the delta variant which is currently dominant in many countries around the world - by directly comparing naturally acquired immunity to vaccine-induced immunity.

The other cited papers in OP give some reasoning why natural infection might confer more robust protection, particularly when challenged by variants of concern [7][8][9]. The gist is that the immune response acquired through natural infection evolves in such a way that broader and more diverse antibodies can be developed. Another major difference is that natural infection induces antibodies against the nucleocapsid (N) protein, whereas vaccination with the current mRNA based spike protein focused formulations do not [10][11].

All of these findings have major implications for public health policy. In particular, optimal vaccination strategy should likely be targeted towards immunologically naive individuals, or individuals more vulnerable due to age and poor health [12].

- A previous history of SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with an 84% lower risk of infection, with median protective effect observed 7 months following primary infection. This time period is the minimum probable effect because seroconversions were not included. This study shows that previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 induces effective immunity to future infections in most individuals. [1] (N=25,661)

- Reinfection is rare in the young and international population of Qatar. Natural infection appears to elicit strong protection against reinfection with an efficacy ~95% for at least seven months. [4] (N=192,967)

- The degree of protection (10-fold) associated with seropositivity appears to be comparable to that observed in the initial reports of the efficacy of mRNA vaccines in large clinical trials. [5] (N=3,257,478)

> those vaccinated are still at a 5.96-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection and at a 7.13-fold increased risk for symptomatic disease compared to those previously infected. [6]

> SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalization compared to those who were previously infected. [6]

[1] SARS-CoV-2 infection rates of antibody-positive compared with antibody-negative health-care workers in England: a large, multicentre, prospective cohort study (SIREN) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33844963/

[2] Risk of Reinfection After Seroconversion to Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2): A Population-based Propensity-score Matched Cohort Study https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid...

[3] Assessment of SARS-CoV-2 Reinfection 1 Year After Primary Infection in a Population in Lombardy, Italy https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

[4] SARS-CoV-2 antibody-positivity protects against reinfection for at least seven months with 95% efficacy https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258953702...

[5] Association of SARS-CoV-2 Seropositive Antibody Test With Risk of Future Infection https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

[6] Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

[7] Naturally enhanced neutralizing breadth against SARS-CoV-2 one year after infection https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9

[8] Affinity maturation of SARS-CoV-2 neutralizing antibodies confers potency, breadth, and resilience to viral escape mutations https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34331873/

[9] High genetic barrier to escape from human polyclonal SARS-CoV-2 neutralizing antibodies https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.455491v1

[10] Combining spike- and nucleocapsid-based vaccines improves distal control of SARS-CoV-2 https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-1247(21)01108-6....

[11] Immunogenicity and crossreactivity of antibodies to the nucleocapsid protein of SARS-CoV-2: utility and limitations in seroprevalence and immunity studies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7879156/

[12] Model-informed COVID-19 vaccine prioritization strategies by age and serostatus https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/371/6532/916.full...

Re: Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine

#59

Survivorship bias comes to mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Not sure how that's really relevant when over 99% of people in both the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts do not die from Covid.

From the point of view that there is some risk involved from the first covid infection in order to get the immunity, so people will be less likely to correctly assess the risk of getting natural immunity vs getting vaccine in order to end up to the study's cohorts.
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