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Work Hard (2007)

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Re: Work Hard (2007)

#151

Post by z0ltan »

TameAntelope wrote: post #24

I've held for a long time that you must know the rules quite well before you're "allowed" to break them, and I think this reinforces my opinion on that. Additionally, I think the obsession over "intelligence" and "natural ability" is vastly overstated, in general. It absolutely helps, and it compounds, to be smart, but a person who "works hard" is infinitely more valuable to their colleagues than a smart person who d…

> I just cannot, for the life of me, maintain a "work hard" mindset. I'm still trying,

You answered your own objection. One key difference between "smart" people and "not so smart" people IS the ability to work hard. This is a very underrated perspective. No offence to you, but the truth is that for many people, despite their wanting to, they cannot work hard. In my humble opinion, this is __one__ of the distinguishing features of smart people - the ability to work hard and long and with a higher threshold of mental and its concomitant physical exhaustion.

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#152

Post by JohannesH »

selestify wrote: post #73
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. I like to compare work capacity to exercise capacity. Too much exercise will actually harm your fitness rather than improve it. However, reasonable exertions, combined with appropriate rest, will improve your fitness over time. Like exercise capacity, one's ability to work hard can also be improved through practice. This doesn't mean pulling all-nighters and chugging caffeine to override the sleepiness,…

Are there any such tracking software that you’d recommend?

I like manictime

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#153

Post by draw_down »

MaysonL wrote: post #108
bserge wrote: post #31

On a related note, this always trickles down to low level managers who then proceed to tell it to the floor workers. Trying to motivate a cleaner, assembly operative, driver, cashier, warehouse operative, packer and other low level workers with it is like telling them to go fuck themselves. It sounds like bullshit. It is bullshit. No one fucking loves these jobs. There's nothing to aspire to. Working hard means just…

I used to work at a company where the janitor, by working hard, and being willing to step up to opportunities he was offered, became a shift supervisor. Not every company is like that, true, maybe almost none are, but it can happen. Reminds me of the concept "return on luck" to go along with "return on investment".

Might be more of a lesson for the boss than the janitor

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#154

Post by ZephyrBlu »

TameAntelope wrote: post #147
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a problem. The problem I see is touting the value of hard work to people who may not have the requisite IQ to go along with it for their desired outcome (Best in the world in their field, for example). You said, Additionally, I think the obsession over "intelligence" and "natural ability" is vastly overstated, in general" . I think it's actually understated in general. Telling people who don't have the me…

There is no requisite IQ, and I absolutely would tell someone with a definitionally average 100 IQ to "work hard" to become a software engineer/lawyer, as they could be in the absolute top of their field if they did.

You really believe that? Do you think there is any threshold then? Could it be done by an 80-90 IQ person?

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#155

Post by n8cpdx »

bserge wrote: post #31

On a related note, this always trickles down to low level managers who then proceed to tell it to the floor workers. Trying to motivate a cleaner, assembly operative, driver, cashier, warehouse operative, packer and other low level workers with it is like telling them to go fuck themselves. It sounds like bullshit. It is bullshit. No one fucking loves these jobs. There's nothing to aspire to. Working hard means just…

> Trying to motivate a cleaner, assembly operative, driver, cashier, warehouse operative, packer and other low level workers with it is like telling them to go fuck themselves.

This reads as true given how most jobs are currently organized/implemented. I don't think it has to be true though.

I used to work bagging groceries and pushing carts for a supermarket. I loved it. I worked quite hard and was recognized by customers for doing so. I personally enjoyed being able to help someone through great service.

Many of these jobs are naturally game-like (checkout the day before Thanksgiving = time trial). They are critical _essential_ positions.

These people probably don't love their jobs because they aren't treated as well as they should be. Realistically, bagging groceries is ~80-120% as hard as writing software (in terms of perceived effort); the software engineer shouldn't be making 5-20x more.

Making it clear that people are actually valued, by actually valuing them, makes a huge difference. Sadly, there are generations of MBAs who are allergic to the concept.

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#156

Post by pototo666 »

herodoturtle wrote: post #4

> there is an important distinction between “working hard” and “maximising the number of hours during which one works”. In particular, forcing oneself to work even when one is tired, unmotivated, unprepared, or distracted with other tasks can end up being counterproductive to one’s long-term work productivity, and there is a saturation point beyond which pushing oneself to work even longer will actually reduce the to…

This.

Even though I know that working all night till 6 am is wrong, I still do this now and then, because work is sometimes addicting.

I need such message from real genius to help me control myself.

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#157

Post by TameAntelope »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #154
TameAntelope wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no requisite IQ, and I absolutely would tell someone with a definitionally average 100 IQ to "work hard" to become a software engineer/lawyer, as they could be in the absolute top of their field if they did.

You really believe that? Do you think there is any threshold then? Could it be done by an 80-90 IQ person?

There's probably a limit to how much "work hard" can make someone competent/successful in any field, and it'd guess it's around 85, or 1 standard deviation lower than average.

If IQ is important to you, I think you'd be quite alarmed by the number of successful doctors and lawyers who don't meet the 100 IQ bar you're setting here.

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#158

Post by amai »

herodoturtle wrote: post #4

> there is an important distinction between “working hard” and “maximising the number of hours during which one works”. In particular, forcing oneself to work even when one is tired, unmotivated, unprepared, or distracted with other tasks can end up being counterproductive to one’s long-term work productivity, and there is a saturation point beyond which pushing oneself to work even longer will actually reduce the to…

My physics professor used to say: "power is work per unit of time."

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#159

Post by ZephyrBlu »

TameAntelope wrote: post #157
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really believe that? Do you think there is any threshold then? Could it be done by an 80-90 IQ person?

There's probably a limit to how much "work hard" can make someone competent/successful in any field, and it'd guess it's around 85, or 1 standard deviation lower than average. If IQ is important to you, I think you'd be quite alarmed by the number of successful doctors and lawyers who don't meet the 100 IQ bar you're setting here.

IQ range by occupation: https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx

The 10th percentile of MDs is still above 100.

The 10th percent of legal occupations is 100.

Also: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-IQ-of-a-medical-do...

Sources + people's estimates place the average IQ of a doctor well above 100.

You seem very out of touch if you think that there's a large proportion of doctors and lawyers who have an IQ below 100.

IQ isn't important to me, it's just reality. The difference between 100 IQ and 120 IQ (For instance) is palpable and you can't overcome that with hard work.

Re: Work Hard (2007)

#160

Post by agumonkey »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #61
herodoturtle wrote: post #4

> there is an important distinction between “working hard” and “maximising the number of hours during which one works”. In particular, forcing oneself to work even when one is tired, unmotivated, unprepared, or distracted with other tasks can end up being counterproductive to one’s long-term work productivity, and there is a saturation point beyond which pushing oneself to work even longer will actually reduce the to…

Great point. I like to compare work capacity to exercise capacity. Too much exercise will actually harm your fitness rather than improve it. However, reasonable exertions, combined with appropriate rest, will improve your fitness over time. Like exercise capacity, one's ability to work hard can also be improved through practice. This doesn't mean pulling all-nighters and chugging caffeine to override the sleepiness,…

Seconded, I tried to push harder on too many fronts and overloaded my brain/memory to the point of physical pain (if that makes sense)

Patience, sensitivity and regularity is my best bet now. Also, it's fairly well known that a lot of ideas and understanding comes outside/after workouts.

ps: this is also true in music (which blends physical and intellectual sides)

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