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Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

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Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side business? $64 billion in revenue in 2020. That's like a quarter of their overall revenue?

Revenue, but that's before devs get their cut. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-profitable-is-apples-a... In total... more like $22 billion of profit? Not trivial, but compared to Apple's other profitable businesses...

Apple's entire profit in 2020 was $57 billion. $22 billion is highly non-trivial even when compared to all of their other businesses combined.

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#32

This is the same judge that is doing the Apple vs Epic ruling. I would expect the final ruling on Apple vs Epic to, ultimately, have very similar results to this settlement (or would have). If you've been following Hoeg Law's hours long legal commentary on Apple vs Epic, they believed the most likely resolution would be Apple being forced to remove the "anti-steering rule" which gags developers from talking about alt…

Link?

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#33
post #13

Let's be clear about this: this settlement means that Apple is offering developers less than what they believe they would be forced to provide by law. There is never any other business logic behind these settlements. This is just another brick on the "benevolent monopoly" road.

The App Store is under investigation by at least a half dozen countries right now. To me, Apple losing the App Store appears completely inevitable; and Apple is willing to throw $100 million at a last-ditch effort to keep the status quo. And if we're lucky and devs are smart, we'll have developers publicly mock those checks from Apple's fund because that was money that Apple took from them with the revenue split and…

> It's like when people get excited about tax refunds from the IRS. Super exciting, until you realize it was excess money taken from you to begin with.

Not the best analogy. You can't necessarily know ahead of time exactly what your tax burden is and you define the withholdings to give to the IRS.

You could specify no withholdings and have a big tax bill each year or be too aggressive and get a refund, or somewhere in between. Most people over estimate their obligation because it's easier to overpay than to come up with a large sum every year, especially when living paycheck to paycheck.

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#34

I don't understand why the App Store, this small "side business" in the grand scheme of things, is something Apple is worth fighting and dying over. It's literally, a small fraction of their revenue, and yet it grabs 80% of the bad PR and is now under investigation and proposed legislation in the US, UK, EU, Korea, and I think Australia. If I'm Apple, shouldn't it be obvious at this point that losing the App Store mo…

It's a corollary to Apple's mantra "The best way to make software to make your own hardware". Apple believes in total end-to-end control over the experience.

Yes to a certain extent they are motivated by money, but they are far more motivated by maintaining control. Allowing users to install third party software via another route means that Apple is no longer in control. Apple wants to be the singular provider of everything on their platform.

You can see this in action on macOS. Apple makes almost no money from macOS, yet their grip over it is ever tightening.

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#35
post #13

Let's be clear about this: this settlement means that Apple is offering developers less than what they believe they would be forced to provide by law. There is never any other business logic behind these settlements. This is just another brick on the "benevolent monopoly" road.

If you can assume one side thought a settlement is better than an outcome via trial, can you also assume the other side thought so too?

> Let's be clear about this: this settlement means that the developers got more than they believe Apple would be forced to provide by law. There is never any other business logic behind these settlements.

Im inclined to agree without other commenters that this line of thinking doesn’t help.

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#36
post #7

I don't understand... did anything even really change? Like, "more price points"... but that seems like a non-sequitur :/. A big change would be letting developers make it clear to users how to use alternative payment options, but Apple's press release only says via e-mail... which I guess they insist wasn't allowed before?

> A big change would be letting developers make it clear to users how to use alternative payment options, but Apple's press release only says via e-mail It really says something that "allowing" businesses to communicate certain information with their own customers via an independent channel was considered a concession in this settlement. I'm still wrapping my head around it.

I can feel your frustration, but it also strikes me as tone-deaf to those very same customers. The most common kind of email I send these days—by orders of magnitude—is “unsubscribe”. I don’t want your emails unless I actively asked for them. (And, no, passively being opted in or being forced to opt in by a user agreement or whatever doesn’t count.) I would happily pay middle men a lot extra to get fewer unwanted emails, phone calls, or just generally more privacy.

There was an article earlier today on HN about how user-hostile software has become, and I think that explains my problem. Until developers as a whole become not just less hostile, but actively prioritize my needs over their own, I don’t think I’ll change my mind.

My real problem is that I don’t have any leverage as an individual customer against hostile developers. So I’m stuck paying mega corps like Apple or Google to be the middle man for me because they _can_ leverage my interests against developers. So I just don’t feel any sympathy when developers complain that they are having a hard time abusing me.

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#37

I love how in their press release they say: "The terms of the agreement will help make the App Store an even better business opportunity for developers, while maintaining the safe and trusted marketplace users love." This is going to make the App Store even better! You're going to love it! (not because we did this on our own, but because we saw the writing on the wall and were forced to). I can't stand how they are b…

Well, what else are they going to do, not release a statement? If you release a statement about a legal ruling you lost, it's obviously going to be spun from whoever published it.

This is something of a nitpick but:

Apple did not lose a legal ruling. Some companies initiated a lawsuit against them, and Apple and those parties mutually agreed to resolve their dispute, presumably with concessions from both sides. The agreement needs to be approved by a judge, but the parties in the case are saying that they are no longer in dispute under the proposed terms.

Companies that get sued agree to settlements all the time, even if they believe they are fully in the right, because going to trial has a large potential risk; and the legal expected fees for litigating a trial and possible appeals might exceed the cost of the proposed settlement.

If the party suing you is willing to settle for known terms, then it might be preferable to accept the (undesirable to you but fixed and known ahead of time) costs/downsides by settling, than roll the dice by allowing the case to proceed to a judge or jury trial where you might indeed lose the case and suffer a much worse outcome. Companies might settle if they think there is some chance that they plaintiff might prevail, even if that chance is low, when there could be a large (potentially unbounded) downside to losing the case — as could be the case for a class action.

This is the same risk management reasoning that allows patent trolls to get away with their bullshit. If you don’t think their patent is valid and would survive scrutiny in court, and even know of prior art, or you don’t think you are infringing it, the legal costs to litigate an fight that battle in court might be higher (and take years of time and energy from senior staff members of the company – a distraction) than settling with the patent troll for what they’re asking for to “license” their patent.

It was a travesty that trolls got away with it for so long, but computers and software historically were new whereas most judges & juries consisted of older individuals, and know little to nothing about the internals of computers & software. Meanwhile both sides could bring in so-called expert witnesses to claim whatever they want.

This asymmetry resulted in some tech companies agreeing to pool their patents, and formally or informally agree not to sue each other over patents, and form mutual defense coalitions. The Supreme Court also tightened up what inventions are patentable in the software space considerably, as I recall, to eliminate the “pure abstract idea implemented in software and running on a computer“ category of patents.

Judges are also starting to become more tech savvy and specialized court circuits are developing to focus on the area. Take a look at how Google versus Oracle was handled: the judge assigned to the case learned introductory programming (!) so as to assess whether Oracle’s claim about their code snippet being copyrightable was true, vs. being obvious and something any practitioner of the art would necessarily write when building compatibility with the Java API (which he did end up concluding as I recall; definitely correct decision IMO, if you recall what that function was – something like checking whether a given index was within the bounds of an array or something similar; any function to do that will look about the same). The case was appealed and I haven’t kept up-to-date on it since then.

As the holder of several patents myself, I personally think only substantial research breakthroughs should be patentable (where it comes to software patents that are essentially pure algorithms). The MP3 algorithm was a complete game changer for music & audio distribution, for example, drastically reducing its data size and making it feasible to economically transmit over the Internet. Breakthroughs of this magnitude ought to be the minimum bar in my mind, that I would want the patent office to hold for software patents personally. A novel way to organize your CRM database should not be patentable.

A secondary problem is that the patent office has no incentives to be strict (after all, they can just issue the patents and let people litigate in court if they think it’s wrong), and I doubt their competence in their ability to evaluate whether a claimed invention is worthy. they also make income from the patent submission process so their incentives are to allow companies to submit a lot of patents; and if they made those patents too difficult to get, companies would not bother, relying on keeping inventions as trade secrets instead, which companies by and large are doing anyway.

A final travesty is how many patents don’t disclose any useful information for someone to replicate the invention when the patent expires. As compared to patents for mechanical devices that must include diagrams of functional machines, software patents have hand wavy abstract architectures that would help you little if at all in your efforts to duplicate the “invention“ after the patent expires.

All right, it looks like I’ve gone off on a rant. Suffice it to say that the legal system has lots of complicated incentives and motivations influencing parties involved in it. There may be numerous reasons for a company to take any particular course of action in a legal dispute.

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#38
post #13

Let's be clear about this: this settlement means that Apple is offering developers less than what they believe they would be forced to provide by law. There is never any other business logic behind these settlements. This is just another brick on the "benevolent monopoly" road.

Applying the same logic to the plaintiffs, you would conclude that Apple is offering developers MORE than what the developers could hope to obtain through the legal process.

In reality, for both sides there is a benefit in reducing the risk of an uncertain outcome and avoiding protracted litigation.

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#39
> Developers can communicate directly with customers about alternative payment options. Customers have to consent and be given the right to opt-out.

This is a huge step forward (though it falls well short of the ideal case) for iOS development. Having the ability to tell customers about other, often cheaper, payment methods removes a substantial barrier for some apps that have high-priced subscriptions.

Positive as this change is, there is still a lot of ground to be won here. I'm fearful concessions like this will work as legal currency in the Epic case, instead of momentum pushing ongoing shifts in app store policy. Can someone with more legal understanding weigh in on that?

Re: Apple agrees to settle potential class action suit by U.S. developers

#40

I don't understand why the App Store, this small "side business" in the grand scheme of things, is something Apple is worth fighting and dying over. It's literally, a small fraction of their revenue, and yet it grabs 80% of the bad PR and is now under investigation and proposed legislation in the US, UK, EU, Korea, and I think Australia. If I'm Apple, shouldn't it be obvious at this point that losing the App Store mo…

> If I'm Apple, shouldn't it be obvious at this point that losing the App Store monopoly is inevitable?

I think Apple believes their own PR story here. They really do believe that the App Store is great for everyone, not just them. They really do believe that they're entitled to a generous cut of all transactions that happen on their devices.

Objectively, you're right -- although I think I'd go farther and suggest that it actually wasn't inevitable from the start. If Apple had dropped their cut from 30% to 20% five years ago, had looser restrictions on third-party in-app purchases (say, allowing them for "cross-platform digital media" like ebooks), and treated streaming game apps the way they treat other streaming media, those alone might have been enough. Sure, they'd have lost some money that way, but objectively, probably not enough to be worth the risk of going through what they're facing now.

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