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CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

tibetanreview.net

81–90 of 234 posts

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the romanticized view of the tibetan societal structure is often very naive. But, of course, this does not mean that a forced annexation and subjugation by china is the only way that reforms could be made, or in fact the best. There are many different ways of modernization, some totalitarian ones and more liberal ones. I guess it should be clear which are preferable.

At that time the brits, the colonists had plenty of time to reform, just that no one were ever interested enough in that poor uninhabitable land to pour enough resource to it, even if history repeats itself, no one would. Hell, we hardly do enough in Africa today.

Well this is becoming a very complex argument. We can speculate about the political and economical conditions for reforms, which may not have been present in the UK (not set on that, but possible).

But when we look across history and search for desirable models, neither the UK (or any other) colonialism nor modern annexations by totalitarian regimes seem like the best outcome (from an enlightenment/liberal POV).

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#82

Tibetan and Han shared same genetic roots, so does their language (collectively classified as Sino-Tibetan languages). Legendly, in the dawn of human memories, the ancestors of Tibetan lost a tribal war against the ancestors of Han in the east and migrated west to a less-inhabited / less-suitable area as a result.

FYI: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23291

Note the PCA plot: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/6f245ebd-af27-4633...

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#83
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Americans who condemn the CCP would be in favor of other nations punishing the US for all their atrocities?

Is it happening right now as we speak? If we go enough back in time every nation has blood on their hands.

I hope that the Taliban's 1 week takeover of the Afghanistan opens people's eyes as to how little Westerners understand what residents of developing countries perceive to be good or evil.

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of the population of the land that is now the US did they represent when Europeans first started colonies there? From the CCP's perspective, would a similar decline in percentage be desirable? From our historical view of the US, are the actions that got us here praiseworthy?

To be fair, a majority of the native population died due to the Europeans inadvertently introducing Smallpox. While I agree with your argument as a whole, I would advise against trying to use numerical arguments for Europe's treatment of the natives.

I interpreted their argument to mean that the Native Americans were 100% of the American population before Europeans arrived.

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#85
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone views reparations are an appropriate response for past injustices. Your framing the situation is a litmus-test aimed at excluding people. Every human being in history is at the tail of a long line of injustices and atrocities. The current way to fix things today is to look at the situation people are in, today, and remediate as necessary. I'm the 4th generation from eastern european serfs, who were treat…

My framing is the only meaningful litmus test. I don't give a shit about feelings, are you going to do anything about past and current injustice, where you can? The answer, in the United States, is predominantly "No" from both sides of the political spectrum to the first question, and "Mostly No/No" to the second. I'd also like to point out that even the Soviet Union/the Russian Federation flirted with reparations fo…

I apologize if I do not use the Soviet Union as a template for my social justice policies.

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#86
post #15

I'd like to read the detailed summary of CCP's policy and effects in Tibet. I was born and grew up in China's Shanxi province, got college degree in Shanghai and masters in Beijing, all in top universities; which means that I was subject to constant indoctrination and massaged (or even fabricated) information all the time. There has never been detailed political reports on sensitive issues like managing Tibet. But I…

>>"...seen blatant external interference in China’s internal affairs related to Xinjiang..., Tibet..., Hong Kong...." Yup, classic disinformation method - just assume the conclusion and blame someone else. The reason that othet nations have something to say about it is that CCP is blatantly overstepping their rights in those regions. CCP is an invader, not the rightful ruler. They're starting the same incrementalism…

*Let me shed some light on the CCP's propaganda, and explain a bit why your statements might meet a deaf ear.*

I present this to showcase the rationale behind many pro-China netizens living in China (both ethnic Chinese and non-Chinese).

Note that I could not give detailed references, because I am not a professional political scientists or historian, and I do not keep such records. Hopefully it opens a window for more directed Google search.

> CCP is blatantly overstepping their rights in those regions.

Legally, CCP inherent the rights of KMT, which inherent Qing Dynasty, who has sovereign rights in most conversational lands. The KMT inherentance from Qing, was sealed by certain legal documents following the contemporary international laws and conventions at the time. The KMT to CCP overturn is of course not legally sealed, but in general it's reasonable to assume the transition is legal from an international laws' perspective, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty (note that I did not read this concept deeply, I was just getting 2nd hand information elsewhere, so I could be wrong).

> CCP is an invader, not the rightful ruler.

This would just be treated as "western propaganda".

In CCP's theory framework, CCP is the servant of people (much like US police, and for that we all know how much truth is actually in the deeds). And for the vast majority of people, because CCP controls a significant portion of the national economy, and they can use those resources to provide social well fare to the poorest. So it's reasonable to claim that CCP practiced this ideology, and "CCP as people's servant" is quite well received. I would say it is about as popular as "democracy is good" in US. (Note that I did not claim one is more true than the other, it was just my observation of people's ideas).

So with that framework, the statement intermediately falls apart. (And we can all assume that people don't investigate, they just consume propaganda. I think this statement is universal so far in human history).

> They're starting the same incrementalism over the 9-dashed-line, and even Taiwan.

These are all based on some historical evidences. Which at the time does not very well map into the modern cultural and political concepts. But again, China shaped east Asia's cultural and political heritage for more than 1000 years, you can see that there is some form of legitimacy in the mind of the people at the region.

> Just because a nation invades, forcibly relocates, 'reeducates', and culturally overwhelms and erased a people does not make them the legitimate ruler, nor does it make foreign nations working to support the remaining rightful owners "interfering in the internal affairs" (&yes, I see that this also applies to the USA over Native American rights).

Invasion was labeled liberation. If you look at the economy and production level of Tibet before CCP's invasion, certainly CCP have brought modern production means and built a much better economy in Tibet. As for how much was lost in the process, I don't see much. Tibetan still lives a quite traditional way. They certainly are not bothered by the CCP's presence. As obviously, to maintain CCP's ruling, Tibetan have been treated much better than the mass majority elsewhere. Even their lands were largely left for their own use, because immigrants from inland do not perform farming work, and mostly live in concentrated urban area.

"forcibly relocates", AFAIK, rarely happened. I do know personally some Uygurs in my college where they were treated as "above law and order in the university" because they are minorities (they are usually left unmolested when involved in some fights between youngsters, for example). They never complained to me about relocation. But I have no Tibetan acquaintance. Of course, it could be that CCP have combined good treatment and harsh policy to silence such complaints. But I have not seen such evidence. And you can be sure that the mass majority would have no such evidence either.

"culturally overwhelms", well, that certainly did not happen from what I can see... As I said before, Tibetan and Uygurs, and many other minorities still live their own ways. They certainly are affected. For example, they are like other peasant workers, need to leave their homeland to work in east and south region, and often get to live a different culture. But they are not losing their heritage when they retreat to their own domains. For this I have first-hand experience from my travelling in China.

"erased a people", minorities, like in US, have their population growing faster than Han people. Minorities are not subject to the same harsh one child policy as Han people. For example, I was nearly died if not my mother escaped a forced abortion by fleeing from the city to the rural area in my home town. Such things were never practiced on minorities. Although, officially, CCP never had a forced abortion either, but you can see the acolytes exerting their own cleverness here...

===

The rest of statements are more vague and general statements. It usually were brushed off from the natural inclination towards China's national interests. Everyone, probably except Tibetans and Uygurs, knows that the national security would be in jeopardy if Tibet or Xinjiang becomes independent countries; and the situation also applies to 9-dashed lines and Taiwan.

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#87
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to meet someone IRL who thinks what was done to native Americans was just and also condemns the CCP for their treatment of minorities.

Does anyone think what was done to Native Americans was just?

Not “just” but I suspect most people in the world are indifferent to a more technologically advanced civilization displacing a less technologically advanced one. It’s how most of the world got to be the way it is and most people don’t really think about it too much. In Bangladesh we have the hill people, which we have treated similarly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chittagong_Hill_Tracts_conflic.... People are pretty blase about it when it comes up.

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#88
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it happening right now as we speak? If we go enough back in time every nation has blood on their hands.

I hope that the Taliban's 1 week takeover of the Afghanistan opens people's eyes as to how little Westerners understand what residents of developing countries perceive to be good or evil.

Oh, their presence there was definitely ill thought; so was destabilising it during cold war through the same means that bit them back. For this, tough action for them and their allies did make sense just like it does for CCP at this point.

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#89

https://freetibet.org/about/legal-status-tibet Imagine being called a minority in a place you are the majority and have lived for centuries before occupation. https://www.britannica.com/place/Tibet/People "The population of the region is almost entirely Tibetan, with Han (Chinese), Hui (Chinese Muslims), Monba, Lhoba, and other minority nationalities. Thus, the majority of the people of Tibet have the same ethnic ori…

> Imagine being called a minority in a place you are the majority and have lived for centuries before occupation.

There's lots of criticism I'd have for Chinese policy, but this terminology isn't one of them. It's very common to use the term "minority" to refer to a group that is a minority at the national level, but could still be a majority in some local level.

This is true in the American context as well (Native Americans, Native Hawaiians, Mexicans, etc.)

Re: CCP publication calls Tibet policy a template for other ethnic minority regions

#90
post #19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tibetan people represent 0.4% of the Chinese population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_people

Tibet isn't China. They got Crimea'd in the "Peaceful Liberation of Tibet"

You can't compare pears to apples. Tibet and Crimea annexations were quite different.

Crimea used to be part of Russian Empire and then part of the Russian SSR until it was gifted to Ucranian SSR as a region in 1954. A 65% of the residents are Russians, 16% Ucranians and 12% Crimean Tatars. And most of their population speaks Russian (85%). There were tensions between Russia, Ukraine and Crimea thanks to that transfer (and they haven't disappeared). The annexation was a bad thing economically wise but it was done quite fast and clean.

The Tibet was already under Chinese control since the Qing Dynasty (1720). At that time, Korea was also a vassal state of the Qing Dynasty. The Tibet independence (1911-1950) sadly didn't have any strength (obsolete military, bad and few foreign relations) and they were absorbed by the CCP military. Also, they speak different languages, have different cultures and the Han are still a small minority in the region.

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