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Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

theguardian.com

151–160 of 285 posts

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big changes need government intervention. The government needs to take away the option to run cars, trucks, etc on gasoline, and restrict flights that don't use renewable energy (such as via Hydrogen). Otherwise the individual can only do a very little, and often can't afford to do that.

or at least require the cost of putting carbon back into the ground to be factor price. The problem is when you slow gdp it's the most marginalized that are hit the hardest. So, the CEO only makes 10M instead of 50M(or whatever number) but what about the poor farmer that was making just enough to run his tractor to get by and feed his family.

Carbon externality pricing is another attempt at market intervention that faceplants in practise. It doesn't get properly implemented, because it's politically unpopular, it gets fudged with highly speculative green-washing "offsets" that amount to planting a few trees and then counting your forests before they're grown (the trees subsequently die of neglect), and the costs get passed on to the little guy.

The correct approach is to outright ban gasoline.

There are cases where no alternative exists right now, such as flight. Those uses should be restricted away from casual use.

Yes, this means no flying on holiday, until they get hydrogen airplanes up and running.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#152

Genuine question to all the anti "Big Oil" commenters here: what's your alternative? Let's imagine an alternate history where oil companies hadn't fought against climate change science. What does that alternate universe look like? We have known for years that climate change is real, and yet the vast majority of people simply won't actually change their consumption when push comes to shove. This is the largest, most s…

Without dedicated lobbies paying politicians to ignore the problem, Republicans could have promoted conservative solutions like nuclear energy and carbon pricing. Green energy could have been cost-effective decades earlier, leading to wider adoption and massive investment in research. We could have been building nuclear plants for the last several decades instead of pretending coal was still viable.

> Republicans could have promoted conservative solutions like nuclear energy and carbon pricing.

Arguably the two most important missed opportunities, imho.

We would still be left with transportation because battery tech advanced on the back of the consumer electronics revolution, but with cheap nuclear power and a functioning emissions market, we could accelerate the transition much faster.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#153

Controversial thought(not my opinion) Fossil fuels are good for the world, The reason we used them was because we did not have any real alternative at the time. For the vast majority of history, people were dirt poor. By utilizing fossil fuels we were able to lift billions of people out of poverty. Think about it, you cant really run an industrialized economy on 100% reneable energy. Wind and solar are variable energ…

They could certainly have been good for the world and also bad for the world going forward. We even have cliches about this, "too much of a good thing," etc. It's not a difficult concept.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#154
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. No, they’re not. > We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as necessary. They are not passive actors simply responding to demand as they find it.

Is Big Oil why we can't have affordable, safe, quiet housing in dense cities? Is Big Oil why people like taking planes to Hawaii? Is Big Oil why it's much cheaper to heat with natural gas?

Yes. I think you're trying to be sarcastic, but it's true.

Cities are designed the way they are because of cars. Roads and highways cut up the city and make neighborhoods less walkable. That wasn't an accident, but the result of decades of lobbying by oil and car industries.

People like flying to places because they are fed FOMO about travel. That has a profit motive. You may find this less convincing.

And yes, it's cheaper to use natural gas because of... Drum roll... Lobbying. Consider what heating would cost if those companies were properly paying for the environmental damage they are causing. Look at California PG&E going bankrupt after the damage from the huge forest fires they kept causing. Climate damage is no less real, but who is footing the bill?

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. No, they’re not. > We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as necessary. They are not passive actors simply responding to demand as they find it.

> Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as necessary. They are not passive actors simply responding to demand as they find it. These really aren't very similar. Big Tobacco's lies were the only thing propping up the tobacco industry. As soon as the truth became clear, their industry was absolutely crushe…

> As soon as the truth became clear, their industry was absolutely crushed

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one... https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/PM

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#156
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. No, they’re not. > We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as necessary. They are not passive actors simply responding to demand as they find it.

They are doing both. Cigarettes are a luxury item. Petroleum products are a requirement for modern life. You could fire all of the corporate PR propagandists and lobbyists on the planet and I doubt it would make a dramatic dent in oil consumption. Couldn’t possibly hurt though!

> Petroleum products are a requirement for modern life.

This is the most insidious and false lie that is spread. Right now we are going through a technological revolution in humanity, maybe on the level of the development of agriculture, in how we generate energy. Renewables and storage are often cheaper than fossil fuels at the moment, and they are getting cheaper just like Moore's law describes the densification of transistors on chips.

HN is full of technologists. We, of all people, should recognize the capacity for technology change. And that technology change is actual work, that needs actual funding and labor, in order to happen.

We do not need fossil fuels for modern life, if we develop the technology. Dedicated technologists and entrepreneurs over the past 50 years have made solar power the cheapest energy out there, despite massive political power and the all the money of fossil fuel companies fighting against them.

If we had prioritized solar and storage, could we have accelerated the tech's development by 10 years? 20 years?

We don't have every single aspect of technology for decarbonization solved yet. Aviation fuel, for example. But that doesn't mean we can't, it just means that we haven't tried hard enough.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#157
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. No, they’re not. > We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as necessary. They are not passive actors simply responding to demand as they find it.

Is Big Oil why we can't have affordable, safe, quiet housing in dense cities? Is Big Oil why people like taking planes to Hawaii? Is Big Oil why it's much cheaper to heat with natural gas?

The oil industry and the auto industry and the layout of 20th century American cities are all pretty thoroughly tied together, so I think you're significantly underestimating the effects of deliberate action on the world.

There's a certain mindset of technological determinism that says we can't control what happens with a new technological development, and how it impacts our society, but I completely disagree with it. And so do the people running a lot of the companies developing those technologies - they have and will continue to aggressively push for the policies which favor them regardless of the externalities, so we absolutely have to push for regulation of how technology is used and shapes our lives.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you, or someone you know, ever alternated between having a high-compensation low-free-time (eg high paid tech job), and low/no-compensation high-free-time (ie funemployment) ? They're two completely different operating modes. In the first mode, every minute of time is valuable so you pay more for convenience (eg restaurant food, same-day shipping), and when you're not working you're willing to spend a lot of mon…

I see the multiple modes, but I think it’s human nature and not central bank policy as being the prime driver of that behavior or of the overall financial treadmill. On average: People want nice things more than crappy things. Nice things cost money. Getting money requires doing something to create value. Creating value for most people means working at a job. If you want nicer/more things than last year or than your…

I'd call that choosing to consume less despite the central bank's policy. Pulling back to coast doesn't work when you're "in it". To get to that point, you've got to churn hard in a city (economic center), avoid hedonistic temptations as much as you can, and then at some point decide to pull the ripcord and leave to a low cost of living area. At which point you know that it will be really hard to get back on if your projections don't hold.

That's also to say nothing of the (inherently majority of) people who can't sock away enough surplus to do that, and end up on the treadmill their entire life. Tech gives us an outsized perspective here once again, by giving us more than urban-subsistence wages such that we can save up in the first place.

As to people's want of ever-more "nice things" driving their need to work so much, I just don't buy it. Rather, I see an extreme social pressure to keep working as much as possible (try negotiating less than 5 days a week, or every third week off), and then they fill in "nice things" as a rationalization. The same sentiment is repeated in many different areas (spend more time with your kids, etc), but yet few can individually move in that direction without totally eschewing the system ("pulling the ripcord").

And while it's possible for some people to escape the treadmill, it's not a possibility for most people and therefore not sustainable for society. There's a reason people doing it get labels like retired, FIRE, startup lottery, trust fund kid, etc.

As for central bank policy, it's reflected in malinvestments like much of Surveillance Valley. One of the most glaring examples was those startups buying electric scooters in bulk, under the hope that if they filled the sidewalk that money would eventually fall in. That's misproduction (and environmental pollution) driven directly by too much capital sloshing around, seeking any sort of return.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never heard a complete argument as to how central bank policy makes people want new cars, fancy clothes, or big houses (or tropical and ski vacations)… I think people want those luxuries and (many) are willing to work for them entirely independent of central bank policy.

Have you, or someone you know, ever alternated between having a high-compensation low-free-time (eg high paid tech job), and low/no-compensation high-free-time (ie funemployment) ? They're two completely different operating modes. In the first mode, every minute of time is valuable so you pay more for convenience (eg restaurant food, same-day shipping), and when you're not working you're willing to spend a lot of mon…

This is an excellent way to describe it.

I’ve definitely had times in my life with both modes.

There is very much a lifestyle trap in which the current work culture prevents a truly balanced approach.

I suspect one of the barriers to having a reduced work week is the cost of employee benefits. Companies want to get their money’s worth for every employee on payroll. So the options for reduced work hours are somewhat limited. If you make 75k a year, it seems every extra dollar beyond that has less value per unit of time spent to earn it. I would rather work 20-30hrs a week for half of my salary but there aren’t any employers who like that idea, nor is it easy to do the consultant/contractor thing as a solo contributor who only puts in 20-30hrs.

Personally my response (intentionally or not) has been to leave roles when I’m feeling burnt out, take some time off, learn some new skills to boost my market value, and then rinse and repeat.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#160

Controversial thought(not my opinion) Fossil fuels are good for the world, The reason we used them was because we did not have any real alternative at the time. For the vast majority of history, people were dirt poor. By utilizing fossil fuels we were able to lift billions of people out of poverty. Think about it, you cant really run an industrialized economy on 100% reneable energy. Wind and solar are variable energ…

let me fix it for you

> Fossil fuels 'were' good for 'the current human civilization, as it allowed to quickly develop technology at the cost of future' because we did not have any real alternative at the time.

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