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Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

theguardian.com

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Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#81

Post by jfim »

nyerp wrote: post #42

> "Say you have a certain amount of time and money with which to make change – call it x, since that is what we mathematicians call things. The trick is to increase that x by multiplication, not addition. The trick is to take that 5 percent of people who really care and make them count for far more than 5 percent. And the trick to that is democracy." > That is, private individual actions don’t increase at a rate suff…

> If an idea is only supported by 5% of the population, we generally do NOT want that 5% of the population driving the legislative agenda.

It depends. The other 95% of the population might be agnostic or unaware of the idea, or the other 95% of the population might be opposed to the idea.

If Congress were to pass a law mandating funding for WWVB radio until 2050, for example, would even 5% of the population have an opinion on it either way?

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#82

Post by coryrc »

coryrc wrote: post #39
dragonwriter wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. No, they’re not. > We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. Like tobacco companies, oil companies have actively lied and lobbied to maintain demand and obstruct coordinated effort of exactly the kind you describe as necessary. They are not passive actors simply responding to demand as they find it.

Is Big Oil why we can't have affordable, safe, quiet housing in dense cities? Is Big Oil why people like taking planes to Hawaii? Is Big Oil why it's much cheaper to heat with natural gas?

To answer my questions:

1 Not to my knowledge; housing policy reflects the desire for segregation.

2 No, Hawaii is nice.

3 No, it's physics. Until very recently even a heat pump would burn more hydrocarbons using the grid than direct heating and cost a lot more.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#83

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

akamaka wrote: post #53
thehappypm wrote: post #4

People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. No point or even value in demonizing these companies — the whole world is complicit.

I used to only blame consumers, until I learned how inefficient oil production is and how much CO2 is emitted at the oilfield. Yes, some oil companies are burning huge amounts of oil and methane before the product even reaches the end user. For decades, these companies have chosen against implementing process improvements, and the only way they will do anything is by penalizing them. https://news.stanford.edu/2018/08…

How is this different from literally any company, though?

If it would be more profitable to be efficient, they would be.

Where are these mythical giant companies that are foregoing profits and doing the right thing and not getting sued by shareholders?

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#84

Post by throwaway894345 »

arbuge wrote: post #46

Blaming climate change on the "greed" of oil companies seems to me just a way to avoid taking personal responsibility for one's own choices as a consumer. You really can't drive a massive SUV where a smaller vehicle or even a bike might work perfectly well and then yell at Exxon about their greed.

1. Consumers don't have access to information they need to make climate-optimal decisions.

2. Oil companies lobby hard to make sure people lack the aforementioned information, specifically downplaying climate change.

3. SUVs are not even a drop in the ocean compared to industrial emissions. You're reaching hard to blame consumers for what is transparently industry's fault.

We need to pass carbon pricing and decarbonize our energy sector.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#85

Post by ManBlanket »

"Personal virtue is an eternally seductive goal in progressive movements"

You don't say... Almost sounds like planting a sign in your yard enumerating the various reasons you're a good person is the brand of activism advocated by regressive causes. Doesn't matter if you do anything to advocate those causes, so long as you pretend to care. Broadcasting it to your other privileged friends and neighbors. That way you can continue business as usual while thriving on the status-quo, but rest assured you're on a pedestal above everyone who didn't plant a sign next to their stoop proclaiming activism. Printed free of regulation in SE Asia, wrapped in plastic, shipped across the ocean, and delivered to your front door. Now if only there were a way to wear it on your face...

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#86

Post by ben_w »

qeternity wrote: post #34

Genuine question to all the anti "Big Oil" commenters here: what's your alternative? Let's imagine an alternate history where oil companies hadn't fought against climate change science. What does that alternate universe look like? We have known for years that climate change is real, and yet the vast majority of people simply won't actually change their consumption when push comes to shove. This is the largest, most s…

Although I am currently optimistic about the future and think we’re on a good course WRT anthropogenic climate change and (peak) oil production, I do remember 15 years ago when I was worried.

The two big differences between what I wanted done and what actually happened are: (1) mandatory solar systems on all new buildings (unless there is a very good special exceptional circumstance), and (2) bike lanes automatically added to every city road whenever and wherever roadworks occur, and those made grade-separated when the existing roads are 3 or more car-widths in each direction.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#87

Post by ryan93 »

j-pb wrote: post #3
Bostonian wrote: post #2

Big oil is big because billions of people rely on hydrocarbons for transport, heating their homes, electricity, and many other things. Demonizing "Big Oil" is a way to evade the fact that people are not willing to pay large amounts to stop the world from warming a few degrees.

That is ignoring the trillions of dollar this industry has spend on think tanks for the downplay of climate change, funding of paid for scientific articles to spread fud, funding conservative anti-science parties, lobbying for laws that actively hinder progress in renewable energies, hoarding patents on renewable energies, buying sustainable competitors and killing them. This is beyond "people don't want to pay more"…

They haven’t spent any where close to trillions on think tanks. People want cheap energy don’t need think tanks to keep demand for oil high.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#88

Post by pjc50 »

ren_engineer wrote: post #71
thehappypm wrote: post #4

People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. No point or even value in demonizing these companies — the whole world is complicit.

the tragedy is that we'd probably be carbon neutral if it wasn't for activists who lobbied against nuclear energy decades ago because it wasn't "environmentally friendly"

It was inextricably linked with nuclear weapons; Greenpeace got their start protesting against atom bomb tests in the Pacific, and later against the dumping of radioactive waste in the sea.

The pollutants are uniquely permanent, and not enough effort was made to not just contaminate the world.

Perhaps the nuclear industry needs to examine why their marketing failed where the oil industry succeeded.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#89

Post by laumars »

thehappypm wrote: post #4

People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. No point or even value in demonizing these companies — the whole world is complicit.

Ah the old “don’t hate the player hate the game” argument.

It’s quite possible to hate both. Yes we as a populous need to do our part too but the oil companies aren’t providing us with their services out of generosity. They’ve been actively campaigning against change. Which is literally what this submission is trying highlight.

Re: Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed

#90

Post by flavius29663 »

splatcollision wrote: post #52
thehappypm wrote: post #4

People act like oil companies are the ones burning oil. They’re just responding to demand. We need to make oil less competitive, with better alternatives. No point or even value in demonizing these companies — the whole world is complicit.

They call themselves "energy" companies, so where does it matter where that energy comes from? In that perfect world where once they knew early on that the consumption of their product would lead to an uninhabitable planet for future generations (because that's what we're facing now), couldn't they have pivoted (slowly) towards true renewables and battery technology? They could have been the leaders instead of the cu…

They do invest in renewable energy, as it becomes the clear replacement for diesel and gasoline.

First you had the decarbonization of the electric grid, and of course that those companies de-carbonized first. Now that cars are getting de-carbonized, you see Shell, BP and others invest in green energy as well.

These are companies that respond to shareholders, not sure how they could "invest for the greater good" at a loss without betraying their investors. Only governments can invest at a loos, if the public opinion can stomach it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottcarpenter/2021/03/29/shell...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/bp-bets-future-on-green-energy-...

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