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The Clickbaitification of Netflix

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Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody was ever going to make all TV and movie content available for $9 a month to everyone. The idea that Netflix could last the way it used to be was ridiculous.

Yeah, netflix saw this balkanization of streaming services coming and they started spending other people's money on original content so they couldn't have the ball taken away from them. It seems to be working for now - they've had 619 emmy nominations - but when there's 15 services that each have 1 show you want to watch, piracy will flourish

> It seems to be working for now - they've had 619 emmy nominations

I canceled my Netflix sub. Maybe this is why? Netflix became desperate to be legitimized by "big Hollywood"/"big entertainment". It used to be the new thing that didn't need to conform with its titles.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#222
post #25

Anyone have a good website that lets you find netflix shows? I like a wide variety of stuff and I think Spotify/Netflix/Youtube always gets too confused to be useful.

I can't stand Netflix's recommendation engine. Here are a few of the sites I use because my homepage is completely filled with junk.

instantwatcher.com - One of the first to do it.

justwatch.com - There was a time when IW stopped working with Netflix over API access licensing. This is almost as good.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#223
post #8

I worked at Facebook for some time, and did a bunch of data work. We had this culture of building something, looking at the results between the experiment groups, and then choosing the statistically more successful one -- i.e. a newsfeed algorithm that had better engagement. This sounds great at first, and certainly is straightforward if you want a promotion. But behind the scenes some of us had this thought that our…

They don't seem to have fallen off, are still the most widely used platforms in the world with billions of users in total. It is popular to think that A/B testing leaves you in local maxima, but what about alternatives? The only thing I've seen work is something like Pixar's brain trust - you do testing but you also rely on the good judgement of a small group of people with a strong sense of vision. Judging good judg…

The problem is not only that it could be a local Maxima. It might also measure the wrong metric all together.

Is the platform widely used and the business successful because content makes users happy and improves their lives?

Or is engagement high, because users have become accustomed to whatever a company is feeding them and look for something shallow to fill up their time.

If you only measure engagement as metric, without any deeper reflection and judgment, then heroin is a perfect product in terms of A/B testing.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#224

I worked at Facebook for some time, and did a bunch of data work. We had this culture of building something, looking at the results between the experiment groups, and then choosing the statistically more successful one -- i.e. a newsfeed algorithm that had better engagement. This sounds great at first, and certainly is straightforward if you want a promotion. But behind the scenes some of us had this thought that our…

Excellent. There is a silver lining:

It will lead to the end of Facebook and hopefully these practices you’ve described... once the lesson is learned.

The end of Facebook, Snap, and other scientifically-designed-to-be-attention-exploiting apps/sites would be very positive.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#225
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How might a streaming service be designed to increase user happiness and wellbeing? From a positive design perspective, could certain streaming features give users a greater sense of purpose or goal accomplishment (e.g., mastering a genre) or help users meaningfully connect to others (e.g., seeing what friends have recommended lately)? While measuring the effects of a feature on wellbeing outcomes is substantially ha…

> How might a streaming service be designed to increase user happiness and wellbeing? The rational part of my brain would like - Suggestions for difficult content (this tends to be things you either love or hate, which is why Netflix does not suggest it, preferring safe bets); - Making it impossible to binge on one, or a small set, of things, instead forcing diversification; - Encourage spending short amounts of time…

I don’t think it has to be actively hostile. I think being almost neutral would go a long way.

-No autoplay and bringing you back to the main menu at the end of content would give your brain a chance to actively decide if you want to continue or do something else.

-No notifications or pushes to get you back on the service. So many services try very hard to take up space in your mind while you aren’t using them, in order to get you back on the platform.

-Suggestions allow for diversification as well as deeper understanding. This might be suggesting documentaries related to fictional subjects you are watching, critically acclaimed content in your preferred genres, or expert analysis and contextualization of content that allows for better understanding of cinematography or cultural influences on a piece of media.

-Low effort and binge content is shuffled out of immediate sight and flashy attention grabbing ways of displaying content in general is stopped.

Now you are more of a passive participant, where you keep getting notifications until you open the app, then are bombarded with easily digestible, low effort content that actively plays itself, and discourages anything that requires delayed gratification or long term focus. These things would shift the way you interact to an active participant, where you decide to engage the app without prompt, and look for something you want to engage with, or don’t and easily leave to do something else.

This really only works if every other app and service isn’t constantly battling to fill every sliver of open attention with the most easily digestible little piece of data (a 10 second meme, a couple of comments, a 30 sec friend snap) and to drag your attention back from other things through strategic notifications, gamification, and feelings of social obligation (did you wish kqr happy birthday? click here to write on his wall).

Attention and focus for long periods of time is a skill. Delayed gratification is a skill. Both of those are needed for long term growth, developing new skills, maintaining other skills, and doing activities that are fulfilling but not immediately gratifying. Being surrounded by things that constantly and perniciously attempt to carve up your attention and provide instant gratification is detrimental to those skills. I want my digital environment to help improve those skills, or at least not be actively harmful to them. In the same way we have spent the last 15 years and petabytes of data, optimizing algorithms to increase engagement by any means, we could use that data and AI to start optimizing for sleep quality, mental health, goal attainment, financial stability, physical health, minimization of insecurity, etc. If Amazon can predict when women are pregnant before they know, I’m sure we could optimize for these.

> In order to increase user well being, a service like this probably has to encourage the user to spend less time with it. But that's not a business model that generates any money.

That is really the fatal crux of a digital environment funded largely through ads. The user will always be the product and will be manipulated to benefit the customer, regardless of the effect on the user.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#226
> The network’s own research shows that users consider each title for a whopping 1.8 seconds

Funny, that's almost exactly how long it takes for the promo video to start auto-playing.

I know for myself I try to skip past titles before getting barraged with the promo.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#227
post #168
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well put! I have another related theory that goes: Over time, everything converges into mediocrity . By everything I mean products sold to us, entertainment, media, the Internet itself. Look at the car designs of the 1970s and now. Look at cinematography then and now. As soon as marketing steps in and start telling otherwise innovative companies or artists how to sell, things begin slowly converging into mediocr…

I was driving to work (a foreign experience) and Joe Walsh was singing about a Maserati. And it made me thing “man, if you grew up in middle America, hearing about a Maserati, you might not even know what it was, let alone that it existed”. Now you can hit Google and see millions of pictures, join the fan club, watch hours of videos and reviews, and become an arm chair Maserati expert. Which is cool, but if sort of t…

“man, if you grew up in middle America, hearing about a Maserati, you might not even know what it was, let alone that it existed”

I assure you that even a rural kid like me knew what a Maserati was. We had movies, TV, and car magazines. People's assumptions about information delivery pre-internet are horribly warped.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complicated feelings are warranted. But is it better for massive companies to ignore human wellbeing? We know that algorithmically optimized digital services can negatively effect wellbeing. We also know that management responds to metrics. I'm proposing that wellbeing metrics (namely, the self-reported effects of services on aspects of wellbeing) should be periodically gathered through surveys. Surely this takes eff…

How do we even begin to define wellbeing? How do you measure it, and do so at scale with statistical confidence? How do you finance it? How do you moderate and govern it? Who does it benefit besides the industries that spring up to support it? I don't think "wellbeing" is concrete enough an idea like business metrics to meaningful act upon in private organizations. Sort of a "road to hell paved in good intentions" co…

Here's how the OECD does it at a country-level. A couple decades ago this probably seemed too hard. Then, it turns out it's not that hard to operationalize wellbeing and measure it at scale with statistical confidence. It isn't perfect — the science advances — and that's good.

https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/

Companies already invest heavily in the assessment and optimization of employee wellbeing. This is a major industry in HR now, especially during covid. Is it really such a far stretch that a Facebook or Netflix should regularly gather metrics from a subset of customers to understand how their products affect user wellbeing?

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#229
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that more because of what they are optimizing for than the fact that they are optimizing? To continue the food analogy engagement is blood sugar levels and they are seeing how high they can crank it. If they optimized for "happier and healthier in the long run" then they would probably loose short term engagement spikes, but have fewer people quitting for health reasons. Basically they could be broccoli if they…

Well, yes, they could certainly try. But "happier and healthier in the long run" is much harder for them to measure than "has responded to instant gratification". It's much harder to A/B test effectively at longer time scales and make the ML model reinforce the right things. But also, "healthier" might involve creating less engagement "content" for them to feed to others, lowering the network effects of the whole pla…

I work in SRE where a pretty common expression is “what gets measured gets fixed”. I used to take that as at least mildly inspirational, and to mean that more and better monitoring leads to more things being fixed. And to some extent that’s true.

In recent years though I’ve come to see the downsides of that mantra as outweighing the good of it. Because some things are either extraordinarily difficult or expensive to measure, or because understanding what the measurement is demonstrating is beyond the intellectual reach or experience of many people. By the latter sentiment I mean, it’s not enough to just show a number or a graph, it has to be interpreted, and for some things that interpretation is very challenging if you’re not a (or the) expert in that system.

As a result, it’s more like “easy to measure and understand things get fixed, everything else gets ignored”. It disdains or glosses over the idea that maybe a person or team’s subjective opinion about what’s important to fix carries any weight at all, because if it was really so important, surely they’d be able to demonstrate that in a form that someone (possibly willfully) ignorant of the system can understand.

I see the same forces at work here, in marketing and a/b testing. The simple to understand metrics are what are optimized, while the more complicated ones get ignored or drowned out. The longer term benefits are hard to measure, and more importantly, hard to understand and interpret.

Re: The Clickbaitification of Netflix

#230
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your outrage that they’re commissioning content that reflects a diversity of experience?

They're shoving the agenda down our throats. A lot of shows become overly politicized, with messages of trans rights, BLM, and other stuff being injected to such a degree that it becomes too much and frankly artificial. I'm not against political and societal messages in TV shows and movies - that has been done for decades, but not if it takes away from the writing and quality of the show. We see that in extreme level…

Go drink a lot of ivermectin you fucking idiot
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